Identifying a wand

[Hypersmurf]

What if they saw someone use it to summon a fiendish hawk?

The spell could be Summon Monster I... but it could be Summon Monster II.

Would you require an Identify in this case before they could attempt to use the wand?

-Hyp.

 

[kreynolds]

What if they saw someone use it to summon a fiendish hawk?

The spell could be Summon Monster I... but it could be Summon Monster II.

Would you require an Identify in this case before they could attempt to use the wand?

Well, there are three factors to consider. First, the activation word. It can be anything, but this we already know. Second, the spell in question. Given your example, it could be either Summon Monster I or II, but the observer may not necessarily know which one it is. Even if the observer is able to determine what level the spell is, that doesn't necessarily mean that he now knows which Summon Monster spell is being used.

In fact, it might not be a Summon Monster spell at all. There's the possiblity that its a Summon Fiendish Hawk spell. Granted, such a thing would require the addition of a new spell (house rule) on the part of the DM, but the rules as they stand define that there is a difference between a Summon Monster I spell and a Summon Fiendish Hawk spell, which brings us to the thrid part...

The rules state that in order to be able to use a wand, you must 1) know the activation word, and 2) you must have the spell on your class spell list. Also, the wand might reveal its activation word and the stored spell when you pick it up anyway (if you allow self-identifying items). If the wand does not identify itself, you have to identify it, and doing so requires magic.

Now, if the baddie activated the wand in front of you, and within ear-shot, there's a good chance that you heard the activation word anyway, so you've got that piece of the puzzle. However, you still don't know what spell is stored inside it. Even if you have cast and seen cast both Summon Monster I & II previously, you have no guarantee that either of those spells are stored in the wand.

You essentially have two choices as a DM. You can take the less restrictive route and allow the character to play the guessing game. Conversely, you can stick with (what I believe to be) the rules, where determining the method of activating a magic item requires identification (such as with the Identify spell).

One is restrictive, just like most of the rules already are. The other is easy going. I prefer the former.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The rules state that in order to be able to use a wand, you must 1) know the activation word...

Where does it say that?

As far as I can see, if you have the spell on your list and know what it is, you know how to activate the wand.

-Hyp.

 

[kreynolds]

Where does it say that?

Oh that's right, its the "ghoul touch" word. Seriously though, I agree with you. I tend to mix up the command-word activation method with the "spoken word" of spell-trigger.

Either way, its a moot point. Whether you know the word or not means nothing, as you have to know what spell is stored in the wand in the first place.

As far as I can see, if you have the spell on your list and know what it is, you know how to activate the wand.

Yeah, I got mixed up. Aside from that though, my opinion still stands (the more restrictive method).

EDIT: Apparently, I really like the word "up".

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now, what if you don't cast Identify, but someone tells you it's a Wand of Summon Monster II? For example, buying the wand from a shop. Would you allow a wizard to activate the wand?

Next question - what if the shopkeeper saw someone use the wand to summon a Fiendish Hawk, and makes a guess at what the wand is, and tells the wizard who buys it it's a Wand of Summon Monster II. He's right, as it happens, but he never cast Identify. The wizard, however, has no reason to suspect that the shopkeeper is only guessing. Would you allow the wizard to activate this wand?

-Hyp.

 

[kreynolds]

Now, what if you don't cast Identify, but someone tells you it's a Wand of Summon Monster II? For example, buying the wand from a shop. Would you allow a wizard to activate the wand?

No. He doesn't know what's in the wand. He only knows that someone told him its in there, but he doesn't know for himself.

Next question - what if the shopkeeper saw someone use the wand to summon a Fiendish Hawk, and makes a guess at what the wand is, and tells the wizard who buys it it's a Wand of Summon Monster II. He's right, as it happens, but he never cast Identify. The wizard, however, has no reason to suspect that the shopkeeper is only guessing. Would you allow the wizard to activate this wand?

No. Neither know what spell is in the wand. The shopkeeper didn't identify the wand, so he doesn't know what spell is in there. Even if he did identify and activate the wand, the buyer won't know what spell truly is inside the wand until he does the same.

Basically, it doesn't matter what anyone else knows about the wand. It only matters what the wielder knows about the wand.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And so the only people who can use a wand of Faerie Fire are a/ the druid who crafted the wand, or b/ a multi-classed druid/wizard or druid/sorcerer with Identify?

Because by your argument, a druid who finds a wand can't get his wizard buddy to identify it as a Wand of Faerie Fire and then use it himself...

-Hyp.

 

[kreynolds]

Because by your argument, a druid who finds a wand can't get his wizard buddy to identify it as a Wand of Faerie Fire and then use it himself...

Hmm. That's a good point. Then I'll have to adjust my stance here. If the shopkeeper identifies the wand and relays said info, then you can use it. If someone identifies the wand for the shopkeeper, relays that information to him, then he relays that information to you, then you can use it.

However, if the shopkeeper does not identify the wand, it doens't matter if he's seen it "used" before. Basically, someone needs to know what's in the wand. For the shopkeeper to simply know that its a wand of fireball is not enough.

Consider this...your shopkeeper isn't a spellcaster. He knows nothing at all about magic items, so even if a wizard identifies the wand, the shopkeeper can't do squat with that knowledge, as he doesn't know what it means in the first place. If the shopkeeper is a spellcaster, and the spell is on his class list, then having someone else identify it for him isn't a problem. He can then relay that knoweldge to you.

As long as Identify (or similar method) has been used somewhere in the process, and as long as all recipients of said knowledge can actually understand it, then thats fine. Make sense?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Isn't a druid a divine caster anyway?

I'm sure you have a point, but I haven't the faintest idea what it is...?!

-Hyp.

 

[Kaji]

Actually, the argument makes me think of a good situation. Let's say shopkeeper sells you a Wand of Summon Monster I, but rips you off and tells you it's a Wand of Summon Monster III. So Wizard, confident he knows how to make it work, goes to work in the dungeon and attempts to activate wand using wrong spell information. Does he make some unpredictable result happen, say maybe using the chart for when Rogues/Bards fail a Use Magic Device Check? Or does a Spellcraft check allow you to figure out you've been ripped off before you smoke yourself by accident. I like the idea that the appropriate spellcaster class should be able to make some kind of check to see what the wand can do. If a Druid picks up a Wand of Identify, he should be able to discern that it's "not his type" of magic, and worthless to him. Likewise, a wizard who does the same should be able to absorb a certain bit of knowledge if it's on his spelllist. House Rule it so that if he tries this with a wand on his specialized forbidden school he become disoriented or stunned for one round. That would be fun.