Identifying a wand

[kreynolds]

Hypersmurf's right, that does not make any sense.

It makes sense to me, so obviously, he must be wrong.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Its either that or it has to be re-identified every time its in new hands. The DMG is very specific in that you must identify a wand before you can use it.

Gah. I'm at work without my DMG, and the SRD skimps on that section. What's the line again?

Yup, and for the reasons I state in the previous answer. The second wand was never identified by any of the involved parties. Not once. Ever. Thus, nobody knows what spell is in there. The fact that it looks the same does not guarantee that it is.

No, it doesn't. But by virtue of having the spell on his list, the sorcerer knows how to activate a wand of Summon Monster II.

This is a wand of Summon Monster II. He believes it to be a wand of Summon Monster II. He goes through the approved procedure for activating a wand of Summon Monster II. It doesn't work.

He subsequently has it identified, and it is confirmed that what the shopkeeper told him - "This is a wand of Summon Monster II" - is correct. He goes through exactly the same approved procedure, and the wand works.

The effect of this ruling is that shopkeepers have to add a 100gp pearl on top of the base price of every wand they sell, because it's the only way they can be sure that the wand is what the original seller says it is... even if that seller is renowned for his impeccable integrity. If an adventurer buys a wand in good faith, and the shopkeeper believes he knows what the wand is, that isn't good enough... because if the adventurer tries to use that wand in a sticky situation and it doesn't work, shops have a habit of getting demolished...

-Hyp.

 

[IceBear]

Ok, all I see as being a requirement - according to the DMG - is:

1) The wand weilder must know what spell the wand contains
2) The wand weilder must have the spell on his spell list

Thus, it appears to be sufficient for the person to have been told what spell is in the wand for it to work. He doesn't have to identify it personally or even have had the wand identified some time in the past.

Geee, I found a wand. Let me point it at something and try every spell that's on my spell list until I find the right one. Just as well to make it self-identifying.

IceBear

 

[Hypersmurf]

Geee, I found a wand. Let me point it at something and try every spell that's on my spell list until I find the right one.

So I'm not sure here - are you suggesting this should work or not work?

Just as well to make it self-identifying.

Except that self-identifying doesn't waste a charge.

(From a purely nostalgic point of view, this was the easiest way to Identify wands in Nethack... line up a monster, a closed-but-unlocked door, and a dead body, and zap!)

-Hyp.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

Ok, all I see as being a requirement - according to the DMG - is:

1) The wand weilder must know what spell the wand contains
2) The wand weilder must have the spell on his spell list

Thus, it appears to be sufficient for the person to have been told what spell is in the wand for it to work. He doesn't have to identify it personally or even have had the wand identified some time in the past.

Agreed. The DMG does present it as such and it would seem the appropriate way to run things as well. It is well and good to accept that experts in their field (such as a wizard) would know how to properly handle the casting of such things.

Geee, I found a wand. Let me point it at something and try every spell that's on my spell list until I find the right one. Just as well to make it self-identifying.
IceBear

I diagree here however. The requirement still remains that the spell MUST be identified before use. Admittedly experimentation is possible but I'd end that eventually with "Ookkaay, you now have 4 charges on the wand of lightning bolt..." One does NOT simply play around with powerful magical Wands that hold multiple spells. If a wizard begins speaking so-called words of power I'd expend a charge for each "failed" attempt, for that is exactly what each attempt is if they experiment like this.

If the spell-caster saw the spell in-action they simply make a spellcraft check for the proper identification of the spell. If the original wielder is vanquished there is no reason why the observing spell-caster cannot pick up this wand and use it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If a wizard begins speaking so-called words of power I'd expend a charge for each "failed" attempt.

I like that.

'fact, I'm gonna steal that

-Hyp.

 

[IceBear]

I diagree here however. The requirement still remains that the spell MUST be identified before use. Admittedly experimentation is possible but I'd end that eventually with "Ookkaay, you now have 4 charges on the wand of lightning bolt..." One does NOT simply play around with powerful magical Wands that hold multiple spells. If a wizard begins speaking so-called words of power I'd expend a charge for each "failed" attempt, for that is exactly what each attempt is if they experiment like this.

If the spell-caster saw the spell in-action they simply make a spellcraft check for the proper identification of the spell. If the original wielder is vanquished there is no reason why the observing spell-caster cannot pick up this wand and use it.

Ok, I didn't think a wand could have multiple spells. I do like your interpretation that he would use a charage for a failed attempt, but there is nothing in the rules to suggest that is the case.

You know, I really don't like the way wands work at all. Let's say that a wizard created a personalized spell, the Summon Fiendish Hawk spell that was used as an example. That wizard then creates a wand of SFH and is soon after killed and his wand falls into a treasure pile and is picked up by the party. Assuming that they identify the spell, why should the wizard (who doesn't know the SFH spell) know the word to activate it?

I think what I will do is if the wizard (or sorcerer) knows the spell in the wand then he will know the word to activate it, but if he does not then he will have to learn that word somehow (through some of the methods that have already been suggested, for instance).

The way I see spell trigger items working is the item pretty much has the spell ready to cast until the weilder finishes the spell with the activation word. Thus, I see that activiation word as being tied to the spell itself. You might have the spell on your spell list, so you coudl use that wand, but I don't see why a lowly apprentice who can barely cast magic missles would know the spell trigger word for polymorph other (and every other 1st-4th level spell).

IceBear

 

[Dash Dannigan]

Originally posted by IceBear

Ok, I didn't think a wand could have multiple spells. I do like your interpretation that he would use a charage for a failed attempt, but there is nothing in the rules to suggest that is the case.

True, but we all know that we DMs must improvise these things when PCs begin doing silly things like waving wands around small enclosed spaces with their entire party looking on as they try to walk up walls, leap into the air, and spit fire. Perhaps something more (because admittedly there really isn't much there at all) will be in the revised DMG?

You know, I really don't like the way wands work at all. Let's say that a wizard created a personalized spell, the Summon Fiendish Hawk spell that was used as an example. That wizard then creates a wand of SFH and is soon after killed and his wand falls into a treasure pile and is picked up by the party. Assuming that they identify the spell, why should the wizard (who doesn't know the SFH spell) know the word to activate it?

He doesn't. A personalized spell technically does not exist on the "Wizard" spell list so it doesn't meet the DMG requirements. The wizard in question would first have to research the spell requiring a spellcraft check to add the spell to their repitoire before I would consider the Wiz to meet all the requirements for use of the wand.

I think what I will do is if the wizard (or sorcerer) knows the spell in the wand then he will know the word to activate it, but if he does not then he will have to learn that word somehow (through some of the methods that have already been suggested, for instance).

The way I see spell trigger items working is the item pretty much has the spell ready to cast until the weilder finishes the spell with the activation word. Thus, I see that activiation word as being tied to the spell itself. You might have the spell on your spell list, so you coudl use that wand, but I don't see why a lowly apprentice who can barely cast magic missles would know the spell trigger word for polymorph other (and every other 1st-4th level spell).

IceBear

Ah good stuff, I completely agree with your interpretation of how spell trigger works. I see it the same way.

As for an apprentice, I consider any PC with levels of Wizard to have progressed beyond apprentice some time ago, though they can still learn from others with greater skill. If I was a wizard I'd sure as heck memorize all the spell triggers for all 1-4 spells before I went out adventuring, never know when one might stumble across a powerful wand! Again these are your "standard" wizard spells and not "new" spells that are not on the list. It all comes down to the Wizard class representing years of study and standard practice for all wizards is the memorization of all spell triggers for 1-4 spells (except ones prohibitive school(s) of course). Something they teach ya in Wiz school, kinda like having to memorize all 50 states and capitals eh?

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, but I consider a 1st level wizard an apprentice I do understand that this is something that you would learn as at Wizardry school, but that's why I brought up a custom spell. Under the current rules even if this was a brand new spell, you'd know the activiation word upon using it.

Yes, I could conceive that the wizard wrote down all the spell triggers from level 1-4 before he left his master's tower so it becomes moot. But that's the whole point. The rules make identifying and using a wand a moot point.

What about a sorcerer with no formal training. Why would a character who just developed his sorcerer powers know the activiation word for polymorph other? I'm starting to think, like some others do, that we should just do away with the activiation word entirely (though that just feels wrong - a wand without a command word) and just have the spellcaster "will" the spell into effect.

IceBear

 

[Dash Dannigan]

That's just it. Under the current rules a caster would NOT be able to use the wand. Again, a new spell does not exists on the spell list and does not meet the DMG requirements for wand usage.

Though I completely concede the point on the sorcerer. A wizard we can imagine but a Sorc knowing all those triggers? Perhaps the "attunement" suggestion in the DMG is the way to go for the Sorc for ALL wands. Makes it a bit harder for the Sorc to use wands, but its got the flavor. Geesh, I think that's what I'm going to do because it just makes sense.

You're right Icebear they need to work on Wands a bit for the new DMG. There's not enough there and it needs to be clearer. Ah, well.