If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?

[Oofta]

Do you realize what you've described is a good example of what the "other side" is talking about? Telegraphing, scene setting, challenging the player, making the players' choices matter, however we've been describing it.

I would say that there's a lot of gray areas. The ledge example may play out much the same other than I'd be okay if the response to my "what do you do" is "I make an acrobatics check 15 to get across".

I would also say that sometimes I do call for specific checks if it is called for by an external event or one that is not "telegraphed". Let's say the group is walking down a staircase in an abandoned building and it starts to collapse. I may call for acrobatics checks to avoid going prone and potentially falling. Event then the wizard could cast feather fall to avoid making an acrobatics check.

I don't do that often, but sometimes the unexpected happens. I see it the same as the party getting surprised by a fireball and everybody needs to make dex saves because the enemy wizard was invisible when they entered the room and the enemy got the drop on the party. Or like that time my friend had a goose commit suicide-by-car by dive bombing them as they drove down the highway. Nobody advertised kamikaze goose, it just happened. Now she did have a choice afterwards and could have stopped by a car wash and been late for her appointment rather than having to deal with goose smear that had been baking on a hot black car all day. But that was after the fact.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't know about "immersion" which I consider a laughable buzzword that gets thrown around like "metagaming."

Hey, that is totally unfair!

… to the word "metagaming."

But as long as we're on the topic, has anybody here (besides me) ever been in a game where the randomness of traps and secret doors led to essentially constant checks for traps (or secret doors), literally in every square along every wall and floor in an entire dungeon?

There were old-school campaigns that /weren't/ like that?

You're not pulling my leg, are you?

Of course, that was the olden days, when paranoia was rife (and not it's own RPG yet).


Then again, I saw that sort of thing come back with 3e, and it's Search skill and take 20 rules...

… "Do you even realize how long taking 20 on every 5x5 surface in the room is going to take?"

This reminds me of the DMs who out of nowhere go "Uhhhh, give me a.... Perception check..." without an action declaration by the player preceding the request. It's like the DM is asking permission of the dice to describe the environment. Super common in my experience.

The Simulationist Mystique …

One other thing that keeps seeming to come up is that using skills to overcome an obstacle is "boring".

It is a single binary check. Imagine how riveting combat would be if, instead of fighters, armor, weapons & hps, we had a Fighting Skill, that you rolled to determine which side won a given battle.


… actually, that'd at least put the poor Fighter class out of its misery.

 

[robus]

This reminds me of the DMs who out of nowhere go "Uhhhh, give me a.... Perception check..." without an action declaration by the player preceding the request. It's like the DM is asking permission of the dice to describe the environment. Super common in my experience.

Yeah I’m guilty of that, trying to wean myself off it.

 

[iserith]

Yeah I’m guilty of that, trying to wean myself off it.

Yeah man, probably most of us have done that. Some likely still do it and don't have a problem with it.

It's a habit people pick up from other DMs or from other games.

 

[Oofta]

I'm a bit confused. Why is it wrong to ask the players for a perception check without them declaring an action? I mean, things happen in the world that the PCs may or may not notice, right?

 

[Guest 6801328]

I'm a bit confused. Why is it wrong to ask the players for a perception check without them declaring an action? I mean, things happen in the world that the PCs may or may not notice, right?

I was trying to figure out how it's possible to not understand why so many people have moved away from that DMing style (not that it's "wrong"...but perhaps "weak" would be an appropriate adjective.)

Then it occurred to me: if you belong to the RPG school of thought that the epitome of fine roleplaying is pretending your character doesn't know what you know, then a DM asking for Perception checks and then saying "huh" and doing nothing is handing the players a golden opportunity for roleplaying. Right? The person who does the best job acting as if that didn't just happen is the best roleplayer!

 

[5ekyu]

I was trying to figure out how it's possible to not understand why so many people have moved away from that DMing style (not that it's "wrong"...but perhaps "weak" would be an appropriate adjective.)

Then it occurred to me: if you belong to the RPG school of thought that the epitome of fine roleplaying is pretending your character doesn't know what you know, then a DM asking for Perception checks and then saying "huh" and doing nothing is handing the players a golden opportunity for roleplaying. Right? The person who does the best job acting as if that didn't just happen is the best roleplayer!

Wow.

 

[Charlaquin]

I was trying to figure out how it's possible to not understand why so many people have moved away from that DMing style (not that it's "wrong"...but perhaps "weak" would be an appropriate adjective.)

Then it occurred to me: if you belong to the RPG school of thought that the epitome of fine roleplaying is pretending your character doesn't know what you know, then a DM asking for Perception checks and then saying "huh" and doing nothing is handing the players a golden opportunity for roleplaying. Right? The person who does the best job acting as if that didn't just happen is the best roleplayer!

I’mma be honest, even I as a staunch defender of the goal and approach style find this a little unfair to the non goal and approach folks.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I’mma be honest, even I as a staunch defender of the goal and approach style find this a little unfair to the non goal and approach folks.

Should I have added some smilies?

 

[Charlaquin]

Should I have added some smilies?

I mean, I got that it was a joke, just not the most diplomatic joke given the sensitivity of the topic.