IF Defending stacked


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Of course, if you add the Multi-limbed template...
Each arm, with the Complete Scoundrel stuff, can make use of four weapons. (held, gauntlet, elbow blade, sleeve blade) Technically five for the purposes of Defending, depending on how one reads the rules, since a character could DW a double weapon in each hand based upon being able to wield one in one hand.
 

You also missed the Ear Knives (I can't remember which book they were in). Sure, they're designed to cut a hangman's noose (poorly), but they're still weapons.

As far as arrows go, you don't enchant them one at a time, so you'd have to change some of that around.
As far as I'm aware, gauntlets are typically enchanted together, not separately, so -5 to the overall total.
 


Is there any way to apply these AC bonuses to cover touch attacks?
Defending is an untyped bonus "that stacks with all others." It applies to touch AC.

Sekhmet: Hm, I've never heard of Ear Knives before. I'll have to take a look at that when I get the chance.

The premise that Defending stacks with itself would leave open the fact that even though ammo is enchanted all at once, each individual piece would still apply its bonus as the character sees fit. This is one of the main reasons not to let Defending stack, as you can see. ;)

The price and damage listed in the PHB is for one gauntlet, so when treated as weapons they are enchanted individually.
 

You cannot use it with ammo since 1. It is a melee weapon enchantment and 2. You don't use all of that ammo at once.
 

You cannot use it with ammo since 1. It is a melee weapon enchantment and 2. You don't use all of that ammo at once.
Note that I'm trying to avoid stating my own opinion, since my own opinion and what I'd personally do doesn't mean a damn thing when discussing what may or may not be possible under RAW or RAI. I'm not a DM making the call, especially on these forums.

They're definitely ammo/ranged according to the tables, but they can be used in melee with a -4 penalty as per the description. Blurs the line a bit to some. For completeness' sake, one could argue that if the weapon is given melee rules then it's technically a melee weapon in this regard. Likewise one could argue that it's a freaking arrow, it's clearly not meant to be used in melee and thus shouldn't be called a melee weapon in any sense of the word. The tables support the latter case, but the first point can still be argued.

As the description goes: "As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon"

What exactly does "using the weapon" mean in this context? Obviously actually attacking with the weapon would constitute use. One could also use a dagger to clean his fingernails though. There's no specific wording for what "using the weapon" means.

Another question is whether this "use" actually means anything for the purpose of the enhancement. One could argue the free action to decide how to allocate AC is not dependent on actually having to use it later.

What if you allocate its AC as a free action at the start, then move and trigger an AoO before you get to attack or otherwise use it? If the property was linked to actually using the weapon to attack, then the use is denied and thus the character wouldn't benefit from it. Some would say that's exactly how it works. Others would call BS on that and say even if a character doesn't "use" the weapon for whatever purpose, the bonus must still apply because it wouldn't be fair if it didn't.

It's possible the only reason the bit about "before using the weapon" is because it's too much of a gain to use it for attacking at full bonus then allocate the bonus to AC after that. Can't have your cake and eat it too in this regard.
 

Caelic said:
There is, in my opinion, a growing problem with this board, and it goes back to an old joke about the CO Boards. "Which interpretation of the rules is right? Well, which one gives the most plusses?"

The problem is that, more and more, the board's turning into what outsiders accuse it of being: a place where rules are deliberately distorted and read in the manner that makes the character more powerful--regardless of common sense, and regardless of official clarification on the matter.

This isn't being done in malice; it's being done because it's fun to see what can be accomplished when you look at the rules absolutely literally, without common sense.

Now, I know, I know..."Common sense doesn't matter, we're talking RULES here!" Well, yes, but sometimes people actually use those rules to play the game. I'm as big a fan of theoretical builds as the next person, but when someone comes here looking for a character he can actually play in his game and gets "Play Pun-Pun. It's the most powerful." that's not all that useful.

And, yes, that DOES happen...frequently.

The problem is that those of us who are regulars here get caught up in abstract, esoteric redline rules arguments and the builds that result from them; those who are perhaps not such regulars see those builds, are impressed by them, and repeat them; and those who come here now and then looking for a build get presented with the most degenerate builds the boards have to offer.

And then people wonder why this board still has a reputation as a haven of munchkins, powergamers, and rules-lawyers.

The vogue of "It's not official until it's in the errata/until it's in the errata and the FAQ/until it's in the errata, the FAQ, and Andy Collins personally comes to my house to deliver me a reprint of the rulebook with the corrected rules" is also problematic. Folks, like it or not, CustServ is our source of clarifications. The design team isn't going to stop to answer our questions.

Therefore, I'm going to offer up ten commandments for practical optimization to go with the old "Ten Commandments of Optimization" thread. You may like 'em, you may not. Some people were offended by the Ten Commandments of Optimization thread, which was firmly tongue in cheek, so they're probably going to be offended by this thread, which isn't. But I think they need to be said.


1. Not everything needs to be stated explicitly in the rules; some things just are.
A human doesn't have a hundred and fifty-seven arms, even though the rules don't explicitly say that he doesn't. A character doesn't continue running around after he dies, even though the rules don't explicitly list any negative effects for death. If the designers spelled out every single thing explicitly...even the glaringly obvious...the core rulebooks would be larger than the Encyclopedia Brittannica, and would likely cost as much as a Ferrari.

2. "The rules don't say I can't!" is not practical optimization.
The second commandment is like unto the first. There are many things that the rules don't explicitly say you can't do. The rules don't explicitly say you can't do the "I'm a Little Teapot" dance and instantly heal back to full starting hit points as a result. The rules don't explicitly say your first level character can't have a titanium-reinforced skeleton and cybernetic weaponry.

This is because the rules are structured in such a way as to tell you what you can do--not what you can't. An underlying assumption is that, apart from common-sense actions which anyone can perform, the system will tell you if a given character has a given ability.

3. RAW is a myth.
This is one of the dirty little secrets of the board. The Most Holy RAW is invoked continuously by those who want to give their arguments the veneer of officiality. The problem is, RAW is generally applied not as "The Rules as Written," but rather as "The Rules As I Interpret Them And You Can't Prove I'm Wrong, Nyeah." The RAITAYCPIWN. Not quite as catchy an acronym, granted, but that's what it boils down to.

This game cannot be played without interpretation and the judicious application of common sense. Try to play the game strictly and exclusively by the rules as written, and you have an unplayable game.

Using "RAW" as a defense is similarly meaningless--particularly when your defense rests on interpretation. If you're going to claim that your build is RAW, you'd better be able to make sure that the rules specifically uphold your claim...not simply that they're sort of vague and COULD be interpreted in such a way as to not FORBID your claim.

This becomes particularly important when your claim is especially controversial.

Yes, builds should adhere to the rules as written. Yes, any exceptions to that should be noted. But the RAW as some sort of entity unto itself, capable of rendering a build immune to criticism, is not a useful construction, and causes more problems than it solves.


4. Common sense is not a bad thing.
The rules were designed to be read with common sense. Yes, common sense will vary from person to person, but there has to be some basic level at which we agree on core assumptions, or the game is meaningless.

If we have one interpretation of the rules where two levels of a prestige class give you infinite caster level, and another interpretation where two levels of that same prestige class give you two caster levels, then common sense tells us that the latter interpretation is the correct one. If a character reaches negative ten hit points and dies, common sense tells us that he doesn't spring back to his feet and continue fighting unimpeded.

5. Intent matters.
I know, I know..."Blasphemy! No man may know the intent of the Most Holy Designers!"

Except that, in some cases, we can. In some cases, the intent is glaringly, painfully obvious. In other cases, the intent has been clarified by various WotC sources, such as CustServ.

It makes sense to take these sources at their word, people. They work with the folks who design the game, they have access to them. If a conflict comes up, then it can be resolved, but I can't help but notice that for all the talk about how CustServ never gives the same answer twice, they've been remarkably consistent of late.

It's one thing to say "This rule is vaguely worded, and we don't know the intent." It's another thing to say, "The rule is vaguely worded, and therefore I can ignore the intent."

The first is sensible caution; the second is rules lawyering. When an ambiguity has been clarified, that should be the end of it.

6. Mistakes happen.
Everybody's human. You're human; I'm human; the folks at WotC are human. Sometimes, humans make mistakes.

That shouldn't be seen as an opportunity to break the game.

Take the Vigilante from Complete Adventurer, for instance. Anyone out there seriously believe that his rather abrupt jump from 1 third level spell at level 6 to 20 at level 7 is NOT a mistake?

There are two ways to deal with a mistake like this: a sensible way, and a silly way.

The sensible way: "Hmm. There's a column for fourth level spells with no numbers in it, and a column for third level with numbers that can't be right in it. Clearly, this was a typesetting error, and the second digit in the third level spells column is supposed to be in the fourth level spells column."

The silly way: "Rules are rules! The rulebook says 20 third level spells at seventh level! If you do it any other way, you're houseruling! I'm gonna make some GREAT builds based on this rule!"

Basing a build on an obvious mistake isn't optimizing; it's silly.


7. Simple Is Good.

There are a LOT of WotC sourcebooks out there. I did a rough estimate on the value of my collection just of hardcover rulebooks; it cost more than my car.

Not everyone has that kind of cash to spend on this hobby. Not only that--a lot of people simply don't have the time to commit several thousand pages of rules, hundreds upon hundreds of prestige classes, and thousands of feats to memory.

So: builds which are simple are good. There's nothing WRONG with a build that incorporates eight different prestige classes from seven different sources, and then tosses in feats from five more...but that build is going to be useful only to the people who have those sources, whereas the Druid 20 build that doesn't go outside of Core is useful to everybody.

Sometimes, simplicity is worth more than raw power.


8. Tricking the DM is Bad.
We see a lot of "Help me trick my DM!" or "Help me make my DM cry!" requests on these boards. We see builds that are designed to look innocuous while at the same time being devastating to campaign balance. The idea is to lull the DM into allowing the character, then unleash its full power.

Bad idea. Bad, BAD idea.

At all times, two things should be borne in mind about the DM. One: he's in charge. If you try to trick him, he's totally within his rights to toss your character or YOU out of the game. Two: he's your friend. Trying to deceive your friends is bad.

Be honest with your DM about what you want to do. If he says "No," deal with it. That's part of a DM's job. If you don't think he's going to say "Yes" to something, then trying to sneak it into the game on the sly is a sure way to make him mad.


9. Respect the parameters of the request.
This used to be a given, but people have been backsliding a lot lately. Someone comes on and says, "Hey, I'd like to play a Bard 4/Cleric 4. Can anyone help me optimize this? He immediately gets responses which boil down to, "Only an idiot would play that! You should be playing Pun-Pun, he's MUCH more powerful!" Sometimes they're more nicely phrased than this, other times they're not.

The point is: people aren't offering him suggestions on how to make his character of choice better. They're telling him that he's "wrong" for playing that character, and that he should be playing a different character.

The same goes for threads in which the poster explains the DM's house rules and restrictions at the beginning of the thread. More often than not, if these restrictions amount to more than "No infinite power at first level," someone will respond with the oh-so-helpful suggestion "Your DM sucks. Quit his game and never talk to him again."

I only wish that were hyperbole. It's word-for-word from a thread a while back.

Optimization is about working within the rules to greatest effect. ANYONE can optimize in an environment with no restrictions. It takes skill to optimize where options are limited.

Threads like these should be seen as an opportunity to demonstrate that skill...not belittle the poster or the DM.


10. If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.
I remember bounding onto the boards many moons ago, shortly after the first release of the Persistent Spell feat, to declare that I had discovered (ta da!) the UNBEATABLE COMBO. Since Time Stop was a Personal effect spell, it could be Persisted!

(Oooh, aaah!)

I couldn't imagine why nobody had thought of this before. Of course, as it turned out, LOTS of people had thought of this before. Within about five minutes, I was directed to a ruling that said, "You can't do it."

I was disappointed, sure...but I accepted it and moved on.

There are a LOT of folks here with a lot of knowledge of the rules. Some of 'em are a little scary. They love nothing better than to go over a new rulebook with a fine-toothed comb looking for hidden gems.

Sometimes, a genuinely overlooked concept will turn up. The recent builds using Sanctum Spell are a good example. The feat's been around for a while, but nobody really looked at what could be done with it.

More often, though, if a seeming "rules loophole" is being ignored by the boards, it's because it's been hashed out in the past and found not to work. Perhaps there's something elsewhere in the rules that nullifies it; perhaps there was a clarification. Very occasionally, there's simply a board-wide agreement that the rule is wrong...as with the recent FAQ claiming that Polymorph allowed the use of templated forms.

If it turns out that your discovery falls into this category, the best thing to do is accept it and move on. Maybe the next one won't.



So: there they are. Make of them what you will.

I hope this helps you.
 

Yes it does. ^^

Realistically, Defending is probably meant to be on a melee weapon you're holding and only gives its benefit as such. Simply having a weapon that you never pull out give a benefit is pushing it. In my opinion, the general term of using the weapon means the character is wielding it, at the very least.

I'm actually on the fence about how/when Defending would give its bonus in certain cases. Obviously if one is being threatened then the choice of AC versus Attack/Damage is going to be something to think about. What if a character isn't being threatened and doesn't threaten either? My Cleric almost always stands back and lets our melee take care of things while shooting spells off if need be. After thinking on this, I need to ask my DM to make sure I can use the dagger in this situation. To me, it's pretty reasonable (especially considering the dagger is only +1 defending.) I can actually see him saying "Why the hell are you asking about this?"
 

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