D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Voadam]

So you've already got this schizophrenic meshup of the structure of a monotheistic religion put over a polytheistic system

That's been there since the beginning in OD&D.

A cleric class of a Norman knight bishop base mixed with Van Helsing and biblical miracle powers applied to a Conan/Gray Mouser pantheistic polytheism.

 

[M.L. Martin]

That's been there since the beginning in OD&D.

A cleric class of a Norman knight bishop base mixed with Van Helsing and biblical miracle powers applied to a Conan/Gray Mouser pantheistic polytheism.

I don't think the poly/henotheism shows up until Supplement IV. And don't forget the Templars in the original mix.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In something like the World Axis, deities are in effect living concepts. Pelor is not simply a powerful being who can do sun-related stuff. In a very meaningful sense, the essence and nature of hope, of the sun, and of life, are part of him--and he is part of them. Some part of what those things are is embodied in him--and if he were to be truly destroyed, the part of him that is in them would die as well. Those things themselves would not necessarily die, but they would most certainly be damaged. Likewise, Tiamat is some living portion of tyranny and greed and vengeance. If she were to be truly, utterly slain, all the things she is would be lessened in the world. They would not be gone--but they would recede, because a powerful portion of what those things are had been snuffed out. Rulers would show mercy and justice to their people--or fall and be replaced by better ones. Misers would give an Ebenezer turn. Fewer bloody feuds would continue, as folk reconsider and set aside old grudges.

That's very interesting. Does it say any of that in 4e anywhere, or is it just your take on the subject as a 4e fan?

 

[Micah Sweet]

No I think Star Trek's answer on that has pretty consistently been that searching such external authority and validation is ultimately foolish. There are no "real gods" just powerful aliens and mad computers.

Yeah, that's why there was so much drama about the issue in DS9, because both the pragmatism of the Federation and the faith of Bajor were spotlighted throughout.

 

[Alzrius]

a Conan/Gray Mouser pantheistic polytheism.

Fun fact: Supplement IV: Gods, Demi-gods & Heroes was, to my knowledge, the only time we ever got an official "Hyperborean pantheon" for D&D.

 

[pawsplay]

Yeah, I think one of the big problems is, beginning in the TSR era that are still felt today: The forgotten realms / D&D is a polytheists society with several existing real gods and pantheons, but alle religions are basically organised like the roman Catholic Church.
You have Priests (Clerics), church buildings, mess, you have crusaders (Paladins) ...

Don't forget the lamas. So many lamas.

 

[Minigiant]

Whether something is "worthy of devotion and reverence" is a personal opinion not an objective quality.

In D&D, gods control their domains locally or universally much like the fantasy portrayals of Ancient deities.

There worship often is not based on worthiness but on their control of what's you want.

This is often why the evil not-gods form cults to steal the spots of gods. The gods ultimately have more dominion over them in the areas of their favored areas.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That's very interesting. Does it say any of that in 4e anywhere, or is it just your take on the subject as a 4e fan?

The only explicit reference is quite hidden--specifically, those things I said about Tiamat are (Scales of War spoilers)
canonically what happens if the players manage to actually kill Tiamat--not just an avatar or projection of her, Tiamat herself, in her domain, at the peak of her power. Greed and envy are naturally reduced in the world, because deities have a complex and intimate connection with/correspondence to the things they are deities of. The text is very explicit that this won't result in the disappearance of the things Tiamat was the god of, but it's still a pretty nice boost to the world overall.

There is, however, one actually "public"-facing aspect of this: the so-called "War of Winter" which came after, or in the final stages of, the Dawn War. Specifically, Khala, the god of Winter and Strength/Savagery, wished to plunge the mortal plane into eternal winter, which she (seemingly correctly) believed would make her the most powerful deity in all of reality--her domain would touch everything, and thus she would have power over everything. Zehir, Tiamat, Gruumsh, and (originally) Kord fought on her side, while Bahamut, Pelor, Moradin, and IIRC Sehanine and Corellon fought against her. The tide turned decisively against Khala when her son, Kord, was persuaded to switch sides because he saw that the fighting was hurting bystanders who had no means of defending themselves--he's kind of CG but in the "I only want to fight worthy opponents" kind of way. Eventually, her faction was defeated (symbolically as well as literally--Bahamut besting Tiamat, Pelor besting Zehir, etc.),and Khala herself was struck down, stripped of her portfolio and banished into death eternal by the nascent Raven Queen, who demanded the Winter domain for her services. (TRQ is presented as a sort of "healthy ambitions" deity, since she obtained all of her domains by conquest or in exchange for services rendered.)

So, while I may be amplifying the message a bit and connecting in an obscure lore chunk that not all players will see, even the general text at least partially supports this reading.

 

[Voadam]

I don't think the poly/henotheism shows up until Supplement IV. And don't forget the Templars in the original mix.

Supplement I Greyhawk mentions Crom, Set, and such.

Page 28: "Gate: Employment of this spell opens a cosmic portal and allows an ultra-powerful being (such as Odin, Crom, Set, Cthulhu, the Shining One, a demi-god, or whatever) to come to this plane."