D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Wolfram stout]

I don't know that I actually understand some of the pushback based on coherency. In some of my campaigns over the years there were only "concepts" to worship. There was no clerics of Bob the War God, only Clerics of War, or the Storm, or the Hearth.

Heck in 2nd edition we had a Paladin of "freedom" (he was-I kid you not- basically a cleric of Ayn Rand).

Why is a Cleric of War a bad idea? a brotherhood that dedicates their selves to the devotion of battle to the point that the "spirit" of War infuses them with gifts of the cleric class? Is being a Cleric of Bob the War God that much more impactful?

Maybe I am misunderstanding the pushback. If so, that on me.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I don't know that I actually understand some of the pushback based on coherency. In some of my campaigns over the years there were only "concepts" to worship. There was no clerics of Bob the War God, only Clerics of War, or the Storm, or the Hearth.

Heck in 2nd edition we had a Paladin of "freedom" (he was-I kid you not- basically a cleric of Ayn Rand).

Why is a Cleric of War a bad idea? a brotherhood that dedicates their selves to the devotion of battle to the point that the "spirit" of War infuses them with gifts of the cleric class? Is being a Cleric of Bob the War God that much more impactful?

Maybe I am misunderstanding the pushback. If so, that on me.

I’m not sure I understand the difference between a spirit of war and a god of war.

Also, I assumed paladins were required to be good in 2e…

 

[Umbran]

This idea implies that everyone is delusional. Not sure I want to play or live in a world like that.

No, they aren't delusional. Delusions are what you have when you hold beliefs about reality despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.

In this case reality seems to support their beliefs. There is just a deeper truth that they haven't discovered.

 

[Wolfram stout]

I’m not sure I understand the difference between a spirit of war and a god of war.

Also, I assumed paladins were required to be good in 2e…

The Paladin used some wonky rules from Dragon Magazine that had rules (only for NPCs mind you-wink wink) for Paladins for the other alignments.

And I don't get the difference between a spirit of war a god of war or a "philosophy" of war either. That is why I am hoping I am missing something. I thought the pushback has been against using non-gods (I used spirit but could have used philosophy instead) for clerical powers.

 

[FrozenNorth]

So, a divine caster like a Cleric, Paladin, Druid etc don't need any actual divine link to power and can just use "The power of my inner belief )or love or friendship or self respect etc) to gain divine powers.

So why would a Warlock ever make a deal with Cthulu or a Fey Princess? Why would a Wizard spend thousands of hours pouring over spell books? They can just "Believe in themselves" hard enough and gain magical power. Cannot a Warlock just make an Oath to himself and gain spells? A Wizard Believe in magic so much he just finds it deep inside (but not like a Sorcerer who is just born with it!)?

This is kind of mixing up in-game elements and out-of-game elements.

Out of game: I want to play a character whose source of power is a deity or who wants to incarnate a specific set of values. If certain classes that don’t draw their power from external deities exist, it will impact my enjoyment of the game.

In game: Not everyone can rely on an internal power source. Maybe you have to be born with it. Maybe you need to train to open your inner eye. Maybe something you came across unlocked this power. Maybe it’s a mystery. Whatever the specific reason, it isn’t available to everyone.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I just look at it more as I have no problem with "paladin" being an in-universe term, that there are sworn warriors to gods and oaths who fight the forces of evil/darkness/puppy kickers/what have you. Obviously, I'm totally on board with using the paladin metagame chassis for any sort of defensive warrior/gish type.

Well, unless you are Oath of Conquest. I’m pretty sure those guys don’t call themselves paladins. Or the Oaths of the Ancients types.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Hah, that gets into another divergence in playstyle I've come across. Do you create a character by writing their story first and then trying to find suitable mechanics second? Or do you sketch out a skeleton of mechanics first and then write a story around them second?

I don't think either is objectively right or wrong, even if I'm usually in the latter camp. But I do feel that for a class based RPG, at least some degree of the latter approach is advisable. The more freeform and point buy RPGs are open to that "story first" style, but when you're boxed into a class package it helps to give at least some consideration to it with your character design.

I’ve been thinking about this as well. I create the concept first then the character, and generally, 5e is flexible enough to accommodate that.

A lot of my poor experience with PF2 is that the mechanics are so strict that it discourages that approach. I have a friend whose the opposite: mechanics first than fiction to justify the character. Consequently, he enjoys PF2 much more.

 

[FrozenNorth]

This is what I have a hard time understanding. There are an essentially infinite number of narratives that would justify an armored character who focuses on healing and support magic and can repel undead creatures. The PHB lore is a great source of inspiration, but saying that those mechanics can only ever be tied to a divine narrative seems like a massive and unnecessary limitation on what the game can be.

Yup. Maybe they’re born with it. Not every sorcerer has to be represented as a reedy guy in robes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I am surprised anyone cannot accept the concept, I can understand not believing in one, but the concept itself is not that hard to grasp.

If you are so opposed to having to believe in a god that you cannot even do it in a make-believe world, then maybe play something other than a cleric... or discuss an alternative with your DM, there still is no need for WotC to make incoherent classes just to accommodate that

This is exactly my point. Either don't play a divine class, or work with a DM to create a new class with a better explanation. To me that's much better than just ignoring the narrative of a class because you want the powers it gives but none of the responsibilities.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, but the ship has sailed. It left port a very long time ago, and really never is coming back.

Maybe for WotC, but that's just one flavor of D&D, one none of us are obligated to engage with.