If Harm is broken, what's the best house rule for it?

[Piratecat]

Re: Re: well

The fact that it brings death with no save speaks for itself in all honesty. Yet no one listens.

Anubis, martyrdom doesn't become you, and that statement is far from accurate. Everyone is listening; they just don't necessarily agree. Two different things. And lots of people agree that harm should be house ruled, myself included. So why keep hammering it home?

In any event, I think this thread is nearing the end of its life. Please don't let it evolve into a "you said/I said" bickering and complaining match.

 

[Shalewind]

You must run a weak campaign. In my games, almost everyone except wizards have 250 hit points by Level 20.

Whow! Truly? Your rogues have 250 hp at level 20?! Perhaps my definitions of weak are sorely off (which is very possible) Exactly how do you manage 250 hp by level 20 using d6s and d8s? I mean even with a Con of 20 thats still 7.5 hp per level die roll .

I'm truly curious.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

You must run a weak campaign. In my games, almost everyone except wizards have 250 hit points by Level 20.

I use 25 to 30 point buy. Bracers of Health (they were errata'd) have been used. No one has broken 250 hp, yet. About the only way that can happen: a raging dwarven barbarian/psychic warrior with Improved Vigor (which has also been errata'd) and Overpowered Overpowered Fortified Animal Affinity to boost Con. IMC Animal Affinity gives an enhancement bonus, but if you let it stack with the Endurance spell you get even more hp. Maybe you'll break 250 hp that way, but only while the Vigor and rage last.

 

[Thanee]

You must run a weak campaign. In my games, almost everyone except wizards have 250 hit points by Level 20.

Well, my 18th level character has... 80 hps... gotta do something about that soon, I suppose!

Ok, she's an arcane trickster and therefore does not really qualify for not being a wizard.

I'm not sure how many hps our paladin has, should be above 200, though. Our cleric and monk definitely have less than 200.

Sure with a multiple empowered endurance and empowered tenser's transformation, even my trickster could break the 250 mark (including temporary hps) on a lucky day.

Is the 250 hps figure including temporary buffs?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Originally posted by Anubis
DO you play the same game the rest of us do? Monks are quite possibly the most powerful core class in the game, second to only MAYBE the cleric.

Hmmm... I actually know very few people that do believe that the monk is one of the more powerful classes out there.

Sure, the monk really looks powerful on the first glance, but effectively, they tend to be rather weak in our games at least, definitely no match for the clerics or wizards.

But I guess this is not really the point of discussion in this thread.

About harm and your arguments, Anubis, I want to say one thing.

You can never really prove that harm is broken, simply because there is no fixed (i.e. mathematically sound) definition of what broken means.

In general, I absolutely agree, tho, that harm is too powerful for its level, as most others seem to do.

Some people, however, do think the spell is ok and balanced by other factors (altho, they surely also admit, that the spell is or at least can be extremely powerful). Their perception of broken-ness is just very different and therefore you'll never come to an agreement (getting back to the point, where broken is not well defined) with them.

Bye
Thanee

 

[drnuncheon]

This was actually my first idea, but it was quickly pointed out to me that even at half damage, it is more effective than every other damaging spell out there, and more powerful than all other spells of a relative level, because it could still potentially do hundreds or thousands of points of damage.

It *could* - but in most cases it *won't*, and in many cases it will do a lot less than a damaging spell of comparable level. Technically, a blade barrier cast by a 13th level caster can potentially do up to 16900d6 of damage per creature (130 minutes x 10 rounds/minute x 13d6/round), but it's not likely to. That's more than harm is going to do unless you get into the really epic monsters...

Save-for-half keeps harm as a viable tactic but removes the 'instakill' nature of it - a dragon with half its hit points is a lot harder to take down before its next action than a dragon with 1d4, and it permits you to have viable high-level characters & monsters that haven't devoted all of their resources to protecting themselves from harm spells.

J

 

[Al]

It *could* - but in most cases it *won't*, and in many cases it will do a lot less than a damaging spell of comparable level. Technically, a blade barrier cast by a 13th level caster can potentially do up to 16900d6 of damage per creature (130 minutes x 10 rounds/minute x 13d6/round), but it's not likely to. That's more than harm is going to do unless you get into the really epic monsters...

Save-for-half keeps harm as a viable tactic but removes the 'instakill' nature of it - a dragon with half its hit points is a lot harder to take down before its next action than a dragon with 1d4, and it permits you to have viable high-level characters & monsters that haven't devoted all of their resources to protecting themselves from harm spells.

J

I still dislike save-for-half. This effectively means that two Harms and you're toast, etc. etc. etc.

This cannot be said for any other spell in the game. Sure, two Meteor Swarms are going to hurt, but it's not going to *guarantee* that you're all but dead. Bear in mind that it terms of sheer damage, your best bet is probably a Maximised Blade Barrier for 120 damage: this allows a Reflex save for nothing. The best save-for-half damage spell is probably a Double Empowered Cone of Cold, pitching in at save for 15d6 (average around 50). With two saves for half, you'll be taking in the region of 100 damage, unlikely to kill you at top-level. Two Meteor Swarms, allowing no save, is going to weigh in at 160 damage: probably enough to take out a wizard or rogue, but falling far short of a heavy tank fighter, who can have upwards of 300.

So even at save-for-half, it's a bit too lethal for 6th level. Compare with Disintegrate, which allows a save-for-5d6. It's slightly different, but it's the only instakill save-partial effect at this level, so I'm afraid that's the best equivalency I can make. I will freely admit it's more dangerous, so save for 6d8+level sounds fair to me by means of compromise.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Is the 250 hps figure including temporary buffs?


Um. no. If lots of characters raise their hp over 250 with buffs (I'm not including temp hp like Vigor or Vampiric Touch, BTW), then maybe the cap needs to be raised to 300 or something like that. IME I don't see characters walking around with 250 hp, even with Endurance.

 

[Thanee]

Actually the question about temporary buffs was meant for Anubis. He said this, right?

You must run a weak campaign. In my games, almost everyone except wizards have 250 hit points by Level 20.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kraedin]

About the 250 hitpoint thing: it's not that hard.

20th level dwarf barbarian starting with 20 con.
+5 con for level advancement.
+5 con from tome of bodily health +5.
+6 con from periapt of health.
+6 con from barbarian rage.

That's a con of 42, for a +16 hp per level.

So 12 hitpoints for first level, 6.5 for 2-19th level, + 16 * 20 hitpoints for con bonus gives 455.5 hitpoints.

Throw in an Incantatrix casting a 8x empowered endurance (using a lesser rod of empowerment) throws another 11.5 con on the top, for 562 hitpoints.

Now, that's an extreme example, but you only have to do half as good to get 250.

EDIT: Corrected a rules mistake. (Was using multiple metamagic rods on the same spell.)