If PCs are 1st level, why don't their 9th level patrons help?

[Power_Word_Wedgie]

To me, the answers to this question (some of which have already been posted) are:

1) Their age has caught up with the patrons. Those who able to stil adventure are doing so - those who can't settle for administrative positions. (ie running the temple, running the monestary) Hey, it happens in the real life miliatary all the time. Thus, due to their age/condition, previous posts at putting their str/con/dex at 7 would be about right. Thus, this is the reason why they are needing the low level adventurers to handle this local problem.

2) If you can't justify keeping the patron back at the temple, have the party bring him along. There's no law saying that the patron has to stay behind. If I remember correctly, the OAD&D adventure Against the Cult of the Reptile God did exactly that. The party dragged along this old hermit (7th level Magic-User) with his 7 constitution (and he greatly decreased how far the party could travel each day). However, at the end, the party encountered a BBEG that a 1st level party could have never handled - but with the 7th level Magic-Users defensive spells, it gave th party a chance.

3) There no law saying that the head of the temple, monestary, or army has to have all of their levels in cleric/monk/fighter. Fr example, make the leader of the local temple a 3rd level Cleric/6 level Expert. I've noticed that several adventure in Dungeon do exactly that.

4) Plot hooks (ie the Local Uber-Mage is off handling another problem, etc.) has been covered extensively by other posters. If you don't like that as an answr, fine. But tat doesn't mean that it is the only acceptable answer.

Dungeons and Dragons is a very dynamic game if you let it be. It is really up to you as the DM.

 

[dreaded_beast]

Thanks for all the great ideas and suggestions!

I have a lot to mull over. Since this is my first adventure, I want to be able to have a reason for why certain things do and do not happen. I guess it's like a move with big "plot holes". I want to make sure I fill mine.

Thanks again!

 

[CombatWombat51]

I don't really understand why DM's have problems explaining this. Do you call the National Guard to apprehend a mugger? No, you call the police: the lowest "level" that's trained for the job. Do you call NASA for help with your model airplane? Do you call Hawking for help with your algebra homework?

 

[reiella]

I don't really understand why DM's have problems explaining this. Do you call the National Guard to apprehend a mugger? No, you call the police: the lowest "level" that's trained for the job. Do you call NASA for help with your model airplane? Do you call Hawking for help with your algebra homework?

Well, those analogies don't work so well.

Because in this instance, it's more akin to a local calling the sheriff with help with a mugging and being told that the sheriff is 'busy' at the moment. Or calling your teacher/mentor/professor for help with your homework. And as has already been mentioned, you wouldn't send the 'lowest fit level' to deal with a critical issue such as a land based incursion.

The local scope that I percieve (Admittantly, it may be incorrect) seems to imply a more immediate relationship. And if the adventure is calling for an immediate threat to the region, it is difficult to justify inactivity by the patrons.

On a broader scope, you can replace patron with deity and you have a big ugly kettle of fish to deal with. Although it's easier to justify the "I'm too busy and important to deal with you" excuse as a deity, the alternate excuse "My direct intervention may make things worse" becomes more viable.

Personally, it may be necessary for the adventure hooks to be less immediate if you use a patron to advance them so that the patron may have time to 'clean up the mess' if the party fails become the threat comes to their location. It can also just simply be an 'overestimation' of the party's effectiveness, believing that they are more than fit/capable of dealing with 'some kobolds', although such attitude is a bit condescending to the characters (and it starts to feel/seem like the party is being sent on busy work tasks).

 

[Talon5]

While thinking about the background history for my adventure, I decided to place a monastery and cleric temple within the area. In both places I decided to have a 9th level monk and cleric be in charge of their respective areas.

Now, if there is some BBEG running around in the nearby caves, why wouldn't they just go themselves to take care of it?

The area for the adventure is in the wilderness with the nearest town roughly 3-6 hours away. The town is basically just a small village.

There are lots of great ideas in this thread, lots of which helped me to understand the same question your having here.

One of the things I did in my last campaign was the PCs met an elderly man- Bard by the sounds of him, thou he claimed to be a wizard minus his books. He noticed something one of the PCs (an anicent bow created by or for a follower of Ehlonna- thou no one knew for sure at the time (note the characters were 2nd lvl at this stage and the bow was only Mom's old adventuring bow) had and offered to help them identify the item.

They accepted, he said he'd been in touch. He asked them- if they would be so kind, if they could deliver a message for him. Adventure insued.

A few months later he contacts them with info and directs them to more adventure, thinking as he had in the previous that it would be nothing serious.

Information related to the bow was offered up and the groups origin and history began to unfold via this old man.

What was he doing through all this? Seeking information for them. Why? He was bored, old, and tired, he was beyond his years to travel and sleep out of the ground.

In the end he was there for the big fight, killing critters that were a half dozen levels above the PCs while they fought the menions and some of the leaders (hard to expalin without a lot of work).

Needless to say he acted as a source of adventure and information. He helped them to have a source for getting magic items made, or bought. He knew lots of people and aside from some people in one forest he was well liked.

Hope that helps. Later.

 

[WayneLigon]

...here, I got bored with DnD 15 or more years ago, I’ve glanced at the system since but it doesn’t engage me. I only ever ran two long campaigns. ...

...so I switched to the bizarre and wonderful world of Glorantha & RuneQuest. Any system where hit points don’t improve (or in the case of HârnMaster, don’t exist) completely changes the way you game. ....

You still have the same disparity in power - it's just a different kind of power -- and still have the same 'problem' aluded to in the original post. You have a group of Chaos creatures running around in the Great Rubble. Why does the temple of Yelmalio hire your character to do this thing instead of sending in their Rune Lord and a couple Rune Priests? They have approximately the same level of disparity to the beginning Lay Members as a 9th level cleric does to a 1st level one.

The Lay Members will have some weapons and some fair armor, and they'll have maybe at best a 45-50% with their best weapon, given good stats and some luck at training. Mr. Rune Lord of Yelmalio will have, yes, roughly the same hit points and such as the Lay Members. However, he'll have a vastly better hit and parry percentage, and he'll have vastly better armor and weapons than they will: in effect, given the difference between RQ and D&D, he will have more hit points, and in fact if you run the numbers as far as time he's hit in combat vs. times he hits the opponent, there is in fact a greater disparity in power.

The Rune Priest will not have the amazing flexability of a D&D cleric, but he'll he's casting spells a lot more often and many times he'll be effectively casting more than one spell a round. Sometimes, he'll be casting three or four a round depending on what Rune magic he's taken, his number of allied spirits (who are the ones casting the extra battle magic every round, or providing hte priest points of POW to cast his own magic), his familiar, any summoned elementals, Truestone and whatever magic items he'll have or will have made himself.

In other words, the nest of Broo that gives your starting characters a tough fight will be wiped out and pasted by the temple elders in a round or two, just like in D&D. Again, the question will get asked: why don't they go and do it?

This is where we get to talk about a generic setting versus a specific setting. Most people seem to simply breeze over the parts in the PH and DMG where it talks about providing flavor and background to your world. RuneQuest does that for you. D&D expects you to do it your damn self. If you don't roll up your sleeves and answer questions like the one posed in the original post, then don't come crying that 'the system doesn't provide it for you'.

The system isn't suppossed to. That's your job, as DM, as world-builder, as setting designer and writer and director. Your job.

Let's go back to the RQ/D&D comparison. In RQ, each temple has some very specific expectations for the people who reach Rune level. They have to provide certain services, and perform certain duties. In some cases, becoming a Rune level character means effectively giving up that PC. In some cults, it's no big deal; your time is your own.

D&D doesn't do this, for the very reason that's it's a more generic, building-block system than RQ is. You, the DM, are expected to come up with those things.

Now, back to the original question: our 9th level patons and their useless first level meat-sheilds.

Leveled people in D&D are meant to be heroes. If there is a ninth-level priest in residence in the small village where the PC's are just starting out, there's a reason for that. There is a reason he's not out in the mountains with a group of his own, bringing fire to the local orc tribes. Find that reason, and you start world-building.

 

[jester47]

Basicly in D&D level means nothing in regards to story. Make everyone 1st level-the cleric, the monk the players, the townspeople and such. Then look at the situation. Find out reasons the cleric can't come along, or the monk cannot help. Give the town more life with more events going on around it, and be sure to create a relationship between the kobolds and the town. Were the Kobolds friendly before? Or were they mean? Were they present in the area before or are they new arrivals? What do they want with the town? Answering these questions will allow you to develop your kobolds into realistic adversaries that give a reason for the way things are happening and why it is the player's characters that must solve the problem. Perhaps the cleric cannot help because whoever controls the Kobolds has somthing on him. Perhaps the Monks are friends with the Kobolds and while they will not help they can try to disuade the kobolds from violence. Once you have the situations schetched out then tweak the levels of the NPCs and the monsters to provide the right level of challenge where you want it. If the PCs are never going to fight the Monk or the Cleric and they are not meant to come along save yourself some time and DONT STAT THEM. Just give them a name and a job description. Cause that might be all that they use. If the PCs go to them for healing then note the appropriate levels. If he only ever needs to cast cure light then note that he has the capabilities of a 1st level cleric, anything bigger just note the level he would have to be to cast the spell. This will save you work and make your game more interesting. The mechanics only really work when you kind of forget about them.

Aaron.

 

[Nifft]

This is, in no small part, why PCs IMC are sent out to scout for information, and not to solve the whole problem themselves.

As GIJoe would be quick to tell you, "Knowing is half the battle." More importatnly, it's the half that you don't need a butt-load of HP to survive.

-- N

 

[Lord Pendragon]

WayneLigon: Well said.

As for my own campaign, I've currently enrolled the party in the Royal Guard. They're sent out to do certain tasks, but nothing along the lines of Saving the World. For the moment, there is no such threat.

By the time there is, they'll be just about the right level where people will expect them to be the ones to handle it.

 

[Maggan]

Unfortunately

Well, those analogies don't work so well.

Because in this instance, it's more akin to a local calling the sheriff with help with a mugging and being told that the sheriff is 'busy' at the moment. Or calling your teacher/mentor/professor for help with your homework. And as has already been mentioned, you wouldn't send the 'lowest fit level' to deal with a critical issue such as a land based incursion.

Some RL anecdotal information: unfortunately for us in Sweden, we might be told the police are busy, when trying to get them to stop a mugging. The distances involved in the far reaches of the country, and the fact that large areas are covered by one or two squads, makes for a varied response time. And if the police have encountered another mugging, they're tied up. It works better in the larger citites, of course, because we have more police officers there.

Also, as police here in Sweden are understaffed, they don't have the resources to investigate any but the most serious crimes. For example, a friend of mine got her motorbike stolen, and had to find the culprits herself, since the police was tied up in other crimes and a lot of red tape.

But as you say, if there is critical issue, then the police shows up. But there are also plenty situationen where we low level pc's needs to deal with stuff ourselves. Mostly the minor stuff, and very seldom BBEG, but it might happen.

[EDIT: Of coures, to acknowledge the problem posed, I must also point out that we low level pc's don't get calls from the 9th level chief of police asking us to clear out the bad guys. They send low level cops instead. ]

Cheers!

Maggan