D&D 5E If the characters are super optimized should the monsters be boosted too?

[FormerlyHemlock]

In games where the pcs are too strong for deadly encounters per the guidelines, the best thing a dm can do to fix things is remove magic items, bring attribute scores back to reasonable levels and reduce the amount of advantage given. In other words, don't try to balance the game by unbalancing the monsters... do it by balancing the pcs.

Why not? 5E is a great edition for balancing things on the monster side. If your 8th level PCs are effectively 12th level due to magic items, feats, good tactics, or anything else (hirelings, poison, etc.), let them face 12th level threats. Right now I'm running 11th level PCs through a crashed beholder tyrant ship with 12 beholders, about 50 bugbears, and another 80-odd goblins. Not in one encounter of course, because the PCs are not idiots--but even in a best-case scenario they're probably looking at 28,000 XP worth of enemies (e.g. catch one beholder alone with 6 bugbear bodyguards), which is a 20th level Medium encounter. And it's working great! Tension is high and PCs are fully engaged with their A-game. They may die here and that is what makes the game fun. (BTW, the PCs aren't under a time constraint except for general "don't take longer than you need to or the enemy will entrench and start building alliances," which makes this scenario easier than it may appear to be. They are talking about bringing in siege weaponry for example. If so I am planning on having the beholders detect it and tunnel out there for a counter-ambush, using disintegration rays to dig and goblin sappers to shore up the tunnels.)

If the game is boring because PCs and challenges are mismatched, amp up the challenge, don't nerf the PCs! The DM is responsible for the world, not for the player characters. Players own PCs.

 

[jgsugden]

Why not? 5E is a great edition for balancing things on the monster side. If your 8th level PCs are effectively 12th level due to magic items, feats, good tactics, or anything else (hirelings, poison, etc.), let them face 12th level threats...

If the game is boring because PCs and challenges are mismatched, amp up the challenge, don't nerf the PCs! The DM is responsible for the world, not for the player characters. Players own PCs.

Why? Because pcs are not single faceted. An 8th level group that is as powerful as a 12th... usually isn't. They may have the damage dealing potential of a 12th level group, but are all aspects of the group the same as you'd get at 12th level? If not, when the dm gives them that deadly twelfth level foe that matches up with aspects of the group that are 8th level, you get a tpk.

You're not nerfing pcs when you strip away overpowered aspects... you're taking the horrible pink paint with sparkles off your nice oak furniture. You're restoring the game.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Why? Because pcs are not single faceted. An 8th level group that is as powerful as a 12th... usually isn't. They may have the damage dealing potential of a 12th level group, but are all aspects of the group the same as you'd get at 12th level? If not, when the dm gives them that deadly twelfth level foe that matches up with aspects of the group that are 8th level, you get a tpk.

If not, then they're not really 12th level equivalent. More like 10th.

 

[Sunseeker]

In games where the pcs are too strong for deadly encounters per the guidelines, the best thing a dm can do to fix things is remove magic items, bring attribute scores back to reasonable levels and reduce the amount of advantage given. In other words, don't try to balance the game by unbalancing the monsters... do it by balancing the pcs.

I'm sorry, but what? How would you even do that? Bob's character is built by the rules, Bob is very good at using the rules, no shenanigans involved to make a powerful PC...you're saying that I should punish Bob by reducing his stats, removing the stuff he's earned and...going against the rules at times when Bob has advantage and denying him that.

Otherwise you're suggesting a solution that cannot be applied in an existing game and that the only solution is to start a new game with neutered rules.

 

[iserith]

I don't believe this at all. I doubt most players believe this. Fun is subjective. Balanced rules are not.

This is a roleplaying game, not a board game. Mechanical balance is only as important as it relates to helping the group maintain a reasonable balance in spotlight time. The rest is good table management in my experience and that requires a DM and players in agreement on the goals of play (the ones the Basic Rules or some other goals of play they set).

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

If the players have spent time optimising their characters then give them the rewards of that time. Let them shine!

But only some of the time. *evil laugh*

If they are optimised for one-on-one combat, then, some of the time, let them fight multiple foes. Or flying foes. Or both. In the middle of an escort quest. In a burning building. Etc.

In short, the reward for being good at your job is a harder job.