If there was one thing about 3rdE that you could change, what would it be?

[mmadsen]

I'd like to see D&D find another system for replenishing character resources (e.g. spells, class abilities) than the 8-hours-of-rest system of recovery. Basically has characters stopping for 12-hour periods of R&R at the most ridiculous junctures in the most absurd locales--or worse yet, unable to stop for R&R at some prticular jucture due to time and danger constraints, resulting in a TPK.

You've opened a box of intriguing possibilities. What were you considering in place of eight hours of rest?

 

[jgbrowning]

I'd change the experience/level requirements to more closly match the massive differences in power of the various classes at similiar levels.

ie. instead of trying to make the classes balance completely (which to me is like lifting a formorian giant) just apply different experience point requirements for different classess at differing levels.

I know its not as elegant a solution as what they have now, but i think it would help out the non-magic using classes.

joe b.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: keep AofO

No matter what, they should definately KEEP Attacks of Opportunities. It makes sense and it solves the long time problem of player characters running past bands of orcs guarding the wizard in the back field with the Orcs not having any chance at all in intervening. Taking that game mechanic out alone will make 3E a AD&D game, regardless of anything else.

The concept of AoO make some sense, but how they are implemented doesn't. A 1st level wizard with a knife definetly shouldn't get automatic AoO.(and his low BAB doesn't solve the problem) You should be able to dance naked and unarmed past a 1st level wizard with a weapon ready, without him having much of a chance to react and get any kind of AoO. To get any AoO it should be a opposed check BAB vs a skill or BAB vs BAB based on the type of AoO. BAB vs concentration spell casitng, BAB vs tumbling for movement, BAB vs BAB for shooting in mellee, or anything else not covered by a skill.(maybe either BAB vs BAB or BAB vs slight of hand for drinking a potion, BAB vs bluff for picking up something on the ground etc)

 

[Felon]

I find this is usually only a problem when you get into a dungeon so big it can't be cleared in one setting. However, if you do end up having to stop in the middle of no-mans-land, that's what spells like rope trick and Mord's magnificent mansion are for.

Those spells help eliminate the element of danger from camping in dungeons, assuming the party's of sufficient level to make good use of them. However, the need for 8-hour rest stop creates problems when there are time-constraining factors at work. If you've got to rescue someone from being sacrificed, or stop some major evil from being released, then heroes don't have time to take naps.

Still yakking on about hit points, Felon? You're beginning to remind me of certain other posters on this board.

Haven't heard a sound reason to stop yet. Still dogmatically defending the status quo, Hong?

Tell me where in the rules it says a critical hit implies taking an arrow in the throat. Under VP/WP a crit might mean something like this, but then VP/WP treats crits very differently to hit points.

Hong, I've been around the bend with you on this long enough to realize that you're so enamored with the stance you've taken on this particular issue that you're just chomping at the bit for any opportunity to argue for arguement's sake (i.e. trolling). If I go to the trouble of laying out my position in a cogent, articulate manner, and what I get in return are weak counter-arguements like "There's always death from massive damage. OK, it's only a DC15 check, but a roll of of 1 always fails" or "Oh, that arguement's so old I'm not going to bother to refute it", it seems clear that I'm just wasting my time with someone who refuses to acknowledge even a speck of validity to any POV other than his own. To all appearances, you're unreasonable, and you take pride in it. I grow weary of a discussion that produces nothing but antagonism.

Good lord. Have a look at the 3E rogue. Have a look at the 2E rogue. Tell me what was a completely useless class at high levels isn't actually _useful_ now. Look at.....[rants on like this for a while]....Now go over to Dragonsfoot and tell the embittered grognards there that 3E is too similar to 1E and 2E. Tell me what reaction you get.

Where_the_hell did I say that 3e is too similar to 1e and 2e? They left in artifiacts from 2e, apparently for the sole sake of backwards compatability. In some instances, this was an unfortunate decision IMO. I provided a few examples. Stop overreacting.

And your ranting further illuminated my position. Why are clerics now "now possibly the most powerful class in the game"? Because WotC added and added to the class, front-loaded it with casual abandon, and never stoppped to think that maybe, for the sake of balancing the class out, a few of the 2e aspects of the class could be pared away.

 

[Felon]

You've opened a box of intriguing possibilities. What were you considering in place of eight hours of rest?

Well, first off, let's understand that just about any system that replaces the 8-hour rest cycle isn't going to offer the same level of simplicity. Having said that...

I mentioned an "action point" system previously. I was working on such a system when I was trying to create ad20 game based on the superhero genre (back before there were any worth a damn). Obviously, superheroes don't stop to break camp in the middle of an adventure, and the typical team of heroes doesn't have party healer, so instead characters have a reserve of points that can spent to give them a "second wind" of sorts, allowing hit points and certain special abilities to be replenished.

 

[hong]

Those spells help eliminate the element of danger from camping in dungeons, assuming the party's of sufficient level to make good use of them. However, the need for 8-hour rest stop creates problems when there are time-constraining factors at work. If you've got to rescue someone from being sacrificed, or stop some major evil from being released, then heroes don't have time to take naps.

Then perhaps such an adventure shouldn't involve going into a megadungeon. You can still do time-constrained adventures, you just have to take this into acccount when planning out the opposition. There's no sense in laying out a dozen vicious fights and _also_ expecting the PCs to reach their destination in half an hour, untouched.

Haven't heard a sound reason to stop yet. Still dogmatically defending the status quo, Hong?

I'll tell you when I've stopped being dogmatic, don't you worry.

Hong, I've been around the bend with you on this long enough to realize that you're so enamored with the stance you've taken on this particular issue that you're just chomping at the bit for any opportunity to argue for arguement's sake (i.e. trolling). If I go to the trouble of laying out my position in a cogent, articulate manner...

... which is unfortunately based on common misconceptions...

... and what I get in return are weak counter-arguements like "There's always death from massive damage. OK, it's only a DC15 check, but a roll of of 1 always fails" or "Oh, that arguement's so old I'm not going to bother to refute it",

... which I notice you haven't bothered to refute...

it seems clear that I'm just wasting my time with someone who refuses to acknowledge even a speck of validity to any POV other than his own.

PKB.

To all appearances, you're unreasonable, and you take pride in it. I grow weary of a discussion that produces nothing but antagonism.

Already?

Now then. Let's look at what you posted:

2) The decrepit system needs some fine-tuning so it isn't an all-or-nothing, fine-or-dead system, which is what people are talking about when they say a person can take an arrow in the throat (i.e. a critical hit) with no appreciable effect.

Here, you have conflated two distinct issues: 1) the sharp cutoff between healthy and unconscious (not dead), under the default hit point rules; and 2) what a critical hit is supposed to represent. These have nothing to do with each other; you can take 2 points of damage from a dagger, and go from completely functional to being unconscious and bleeding to death. Conversely, you might take 20 points of damage from a critical arrow hit, and shrug it off. Even if you assumed (incorrectly) that crits were always body damage, that still leaves open the question of what those 2 points from the dagger did to you, that you could fall down so suddenly.

As for introducing some sort of gradual degradation of combat ability, I say again: look up "spiral of death", and the undesirability thereof in a game. Being in the situation where you take damage, which makes you less able to fight, which makes you more vulnerable to even more damage, isn't much fun for most players. That's not to say it couldn't be done, but you'd have to be careful not to end up in the situation where the guy who lands the first hit gains a disproportionate advantage.

I await your antagonistic response.

Where_the_hell did I say that 3e is too similar to 1e and 2e? They left in artifiacts from 2e, apparently for the sole sake of backwards compatability. In some instances, this was an unfortunate decision IMO. I provided a few examples. Stop overreacting.

This is what you said:

3) I wish 3e's designers had devoted more commitment to the long-term issue of balance and playability, rather than all the emphasis that wound up being placed on the short-term value of backwards compatability with 2e.

I see absolutely no evidence that the designers paid insufficient attention to issues of long-term balance and playability. What were useless classes at high levels (rogue) are useful again; what were demigods (magic-users) now don't lord it over everyone else.

And your ranting further illuminated my position. Why are clerics now "now possibly the most powerful class in the game"? Because WotC added and added to the class, front-loaded it with casual abandon,

Huh? I've never seen anyone complain that the cleric is front-loaded, at least not any more than most other classes. It's too powerful because nobody ever wants to play the party healer, so the designers gave it extra goodies -- over _all_ levels, not just the first few -- as a sort of bribe.

and never stoppped to think that maybe, for the sake of balancing the class out, a few of the 2e aspects of the class could be pared away.

Which 2E aspects are these?

 

[MerricB]

Re: Re: keep AofO

The concept of AoO make some sense, but how they are implemented doesn't. A 1st level wizard with a knife definetly shouldn't get automatic AoO

I'm sure this is mainly a playability issue. There are too many situations for the AoO rules to properly cover them, so they went with what is basically a simple system. If you want to complexify it, you can, but personally I believe it would slow it down too much.

DM's can and should alter the rules to suit their games, of course!

Cheers!

 

[Geoff Watson]

Re: Re: keep AofO

The concept of AoO make some sense, but how they are implemented doesn't. A 1st level wizard with a knife definetly shouldn't get automatic AoO.(and his low BAB doesn't solve the problem) You should be able to dance naked and unarmed past a 1st level wizard with a weapon ready, without him having much of a chance to react and get any kind of AoO.

Why not let the Wizard have an AoO? He'll probably miss anyway.

Geoff.

 

[mmadsen]

I mentioned an "action point" system previously. I was working on such a system when I was trying to create ad20 game based on the superhero genre (back before there were any worth a damn). Obviously, superheroes don't stop to break camp in the middle of an adventure, and the typical team of heroes doesn't have party healer, so instead characters have a reserve of points that can spent to give them a "second wind" of sorts, allowing hit points and certain special abilities to be replenished.

This sounds like Omega World's Reserve system (from Polyhedron magazine). It also sounds like what I was discussing in the old Silver Age Sentinels (Tri-Stat) -- and Streamlining Hero thread last month.

 

[Felon]

This sounds like Omega World's Reserve system (from Polyhedron magazine). It also sounds like what I was discussing in the old Silver Age Sentinels (Tri-Stat) -- and Streamlining Hero thread last month.

Thanks for the thread. Good meaty review, and the thread on the whole contains a lot of good material. Even the OT stuff about Astro City was enligthening, if somewhat disheartening. Think I'll have to check out SAS now, although I'd really prefer a d20 supers system (and I hear that SAS d20 is somewhat lacking).