If YOU Can't Write an Adventure, Why Should I?

[talien]

I mean I get it; adventures is what you want. If you don't have adventures, you don't want the setting. That's fine. But just say so, don't try and construct a faulty logical framework for your preferences. Just say, "I like adventures and for me to use a setting, I want adventures custom-made for that setting available for my consumption" and leave it at that. You're not wrong to want that, that's just what you want. That's perfectly fine.

Simply put, adventures are shortcuts. I completely rewrite everything I use – but I need something to start with. It might be as simple as a stat block, which in itself can suck up hours of time to create for the more complex systems. It could be simply be a plotline that I hadn’t thought of. Or it could be maps and descriptions of rooms and areas – I don’t have the time to flesh out a prison complex, a bustling city, or a dungeon. Published adventures do that for me, so even if I do want to tweak it, I have enough raw materials to work with that at least I have a choice.

So back to my three points:

A) I disagree with your parallel that adventures are to campaign settings as washer/dryers are to automobiles. My parallel would be: I expect a mechanic to know how to fix my car, INCLUDING the parts that depend on the engine. The engine (the core game system) runs everything else. If the mechanic only insists on working on the engine, I’m much less confident that he knows how to fix the other parts of my car.

B) I fully appreciate that every game is, in essence, a unique product. But there’s degrees of uniqueness – there are plenty of Forgotten Realms games that work just fine using the Forgotten Realms campaign, and update them when new material comes out. Your game is much more customized, and you’re far more confident in your GM skills, so you can customize all you want with confidence. I’m with you on that – I’m practically system-blind at this point, so much so that I’ve resorted to adapting movie scripts to scenarios. But I still need raw material: maps, NPCs, statistics. If a company has expertise on the game world they published, I expect them to be able to churn this information out faster than I could by creating it from scratch.

C) If game companies want a commitment from me as a GM, they need to court me. If we’re going to enter into a long-term relationship, there better be a long term investment in my game, and scenarios/adventures are one way a game company invests in its GM-base. I see a commitment to publishing adventures as a measure of both the company’s attitude towards its players and its long-term strategy.

As others have said, writing campaign material is easier than writing scenarios. When you’re inventing things from whole cloth, who will contradict you? But writing adventures/scenarios that USE those settings are harder, because it requires ideas to be put into practice (does that NPC’s philosophy really play out as described in his stat block?), tests the rules system (what happens when mecha fight a squad of foot soldiers – is it balanced? Should it be? That wasn’t covered in the main rulebook…), and must be balanced against all the character creation systems in the game (does it cater only to a particular type of PC? Why or why not? Is that the PC type that the core rules expect you to create?).

So adventures are far more than just an easy template for harried GMs. Campaign worlds are templates for a game, but adventures are how you actually PLAY the game. If a company can’t produce that (even for free), it’s not producing a complete game. And if it’s not producing a complete game, I feel well within my rights to distrust the rules system, and by proxy, the company.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

The problem with adventures is that they are specific. The good thing about adventures is also that they are specific. In other words, you can't escape the fact that many gamers will not like or use them because of some little design tweak that doesn't chime with their group/world/circumsatance etc and so they enjoy a fraction of the market of a sourcebook. Since it is MUCH harder to write a generic adventure than it is to do the same with a source-book, I can sort of understand why WoTC doesn't like producing adventures.

Having said this, as an older gamer, I am amazed that adventures aren't the top selling product. I can't believe that many players buy sourcebooks. Surely most books are bought by DMs? And since DMs like me are always looking for ideas, even if we don't actually run the adventure as written, it seems strange that they are SO unprofitable.

I would love to hear from anyone with publishing experience tell us why this might be.

I don't have publishing experience, but I will chime in with my thoughts: the issue is in part the specificity of adventures cuts down on how many are sold (I don't need an adventure for levels 3-5, I need one for levels 8-10). While the number of setting books is also relatively small as well, the big difference is the price point. You can't sell an adventure for the same price as a setting book, therefore you make a lot less on it. I think when you work out the effort and costs of writing an adventure versus writing a setting book, the result will be that the setting book will be much more profitable.

 

[Ydars]

So I guess Thornir's point about price is the reason that WoTC seem to love these biggish path type adventures, like "Cormyr, Tearing of the weave".

Oh dear! I personally think that a book of setting/encounter type adventures would be more useful because you could pick and choose the ones you want to suit your own game much more easily.

Does anyone know if anyone has ever published anything like this? I mean a book of non-connected but fully fleshed out smallish adventure settings, each one including maps, that could be placed in any world.

Say for instance, you produced a map of a walled wayside Inn and then included NPC stats, small micro-stories (smugglers, slavers, highwaymen etc) that could be used with the setting, with the rest vanilla so that it could be adapted easily to anyone's campaign.

Or a ruined castle, with a small dungeon underneath etc?

 

[Voadam]

So I guess Thornir's point about price is the reason that WoTC seem to love these biggish path type adventures, like "Cormyr, Tearing of the weave".

Oh dear! I personally think that a book of setting/encounter type adventures would be more useful because you could pick and choose the ones you want to suit your own game much more easily.

Does anyone know if anyone has ever published anything like this? I mean a book of non-connected but fully fleshed out smallish adventure settings, each one including maps, that could be placed in any world.

Say for instance, you produced a map of a walled wayside Inn and then included NPC stats, small micro-stories (smugglers, slavers, highwaymen etc) that could be used with the setting, with the rest vanilla so that it could be adapted easily to anyone's campaign.

Or a ruined castle, with a small dungeon underneath etc?

Atlas Games:
Seven Strongholds
Seven Cities
Seven Civilizations

I think Necromancer put out a tavern book like this as well.

There are Mystic Eye Games' Foul Locales Series now published in pdf by Ronin Arts (each is a bunch of short themed encounter spots with a slight horror angle (one for wilderness, city, and estates).
Beyond the Walls
Beyond the Gates
Beyond the (I forget the third name)

 

[Voadam]

So maybe there’s value in pointing out settings that aren’t supported by scenarios but actually has online support from fans who produce scenarios for it or by the company’s web site.

I was surprised by the amazing amount of detail for Heavy Gear http://www.dp9.com/Products/HGRPGstart.htm and Jovian Chronicles http://www.dp9.com/Products/JCRPG.htm. Gear Krieg seems to have less material overall, so I’ll give it a pass for that reason and because there is enough World War II Pulp material that you could support it with scenarios from other books. I have no idea what scenarios could possibly support two mecha-heavy settings…Rifts (he asks with hesitation)?

Suggestions? Any other adventures for similar game lines/settings that can be cross-pollinated so that a GM wanting to play in a particular setting can easily convert adventures for it?

Did Battletech/Mechwarrior have adventures? Our group had about one game total with roleplay, usually we just set up the battleground and sent mechs against each other with no RPG aspects to it.

Does Palladium Mechanoids have any adventures? or Rifts? We always found the lack of Palladium adventures limiting to our group, the one in the main book, the old ones, and the high seas, tapped us out when we were playing and the Northern Adventures stuff did not come out until after we had gone back to D&D and Shadowrun.

 

[Desdichado]

Simply put, adventures are shortcuts. I completely rewrite everything I use – but I need something to start with. (...) Published adventures do that for me, so even if I do want to tweak it, I have enough raw materials to work with that at least I have a choice.

And those same raw materials are (arguably) best presented, or at least readily available, in sources other than adventures. Especially if you're merely going to use them as raw materials anyway, rather than run them as written.

A) I disagree with your parallel that adventures are to campaign settings as washer/dryers are to automobiles.

:shrug: And I disagree with your parallel; I think mine is more equivalent to the world as I know it. Anyway, moving on...

B) (...) I’m with you on that – I’m practically system-blind at this point, so much so that I’ve resorted to adapting movie scripts to scenarios. But I still need raw material: maps, NPCs, statistics. If a company has expertise on the game world they published, I expect them to be able to churn this information out faster than I could by creating it from scratch.

Which campaign setting doesn't have statblocks for NPCs in it, even without adventures? Which doesn't have maps? If you want detailed maps, there are literally hundreds available for free on the Wizards website that are usable in a wide variety of scenarios.

I still fail to see how "expertise" with the setting is related to "ability to write adventures". I'm even more mystified when you say that you don't really want adventures anyway, you just want raw materials; maps, NPCs and statistics. What does that have to do with expertise in the setting?

C) If game companies want a commitment from me as a GM, they need to court me. If we’re going to enter into a long-term relationship, there better be a long term investment in my game, and scenarios/adventures are one way a game company invests in its GM-base. I see a commitment to publishing adventures as a measure of both the company’s attitude towards its players and its long-term strategy.

Exactly. And the way to court you is produce adventures; you've made that perfectly clear. Where you're wrong, IMO, is assuming that that is a univeral. That everyone else who might be interested in the setting will find adventures worthwhile, useful or compelling reasons to adopt the setting. If adventures were so important to "courting customers" then you can bet that more companies would use that as a strategy to get people to buy. The problem here is that it appears based on buying patterns observed historically that your opinion in this regard is the minority opinion. Most people apparently don't want adventures, or if they do, they're not buying them. You're posting as if you believe its a given that other customers are on the same page as you, and no doubt some are, but if that were a common demand from the customer base, campaign settings wouldn't outsell adventures to the degree that they do.

As an anecdotal example; I hate the notion that every campaign setting must include a sample adventure in the back of it (and honestly, most of them do.) I can easily ignore products that are just adventures—and I do—but when campaign settings include sample adventures as a chapter near the end, that's just wasted space to me that could have been used to do something more interesting than a sample adventure.

So adventures are far more than just an easy template for harried GMs. Campaign worlds are templates for a game, but adventures are how you actually PLAY the game. If a company can’t produce that (even for free), it’s not producing a complete game. And if it’s not producing a complete game, I feel well within my rights to distrust the rules system, and by proxy, the company.

You're well within your rights to distrust any rules system or company for any reason you please.

 

[Bardsandsages]

As a publisher, we don't do that many full blown adventure modules, for many of the same reasons people state they don't use them. Trying to judge the right level, goals, etc that a GM might want for his particular game is like looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack. I agree, however, that adventures are an important part of presenting a campaign settings. For our Neiyar setting, we have produced two full modules, and the core book includes a low level introductory module. And we plan on producing quite a few modules when we launch the Karma System this fall, as adventures will be vital in helping folks quickly learnt he system and see what it can do.

What we do publish, however, are products that can give you a jump start on adventures, or that can be used to push forward a stalled game. Things like our Adventure Havens PDFs that each present 12 related locales complete with NPCs, story seeds, etc that can be thrown in at a moment's notice. Or Nemesis with presents ready-to-use bad guys for when you need an antagonist in a pinch.

 

[talien]

And those same raw materials are (arguably) best presented, or at least readily available, in sources other than adventures. Especially if you're merely going to use them as raw materials anyway, rather than run them as written.

Maybe for you. For example, I know where to get maps for most things. But not everything I need, and not without a significant amount of searching. If I'm using a starship in my scenario, the suitability of just "whipping something up" becomes even less likely. So yes, I do use raw materials -- but very often it's specific raw materials that only the adventure can provide.

Which campaign setting doesn't have statblocks for NPCs in it, even without adventures? Which doesn't have maps? If you want detailed maps, there are literally hundreds available for free on the Wizards website that are usable in a wide variety of scenarios.

Many. And yes, free stuff is great. And free stuff on a company's game site where I look for supporting material is great -- if Wizards is offering a D20 Modern game, I enjoy the support they're providing by offering this stuff for free. That's a company doing right by its product. Should other companies EXPECT me to do this work? Should I be expected to use Wizards' site when someone else's company produces a modern game setting?

I still fail to see how "expertise" with the setting is related to "ability to write adventures". I'm even more mystified when you say that you don't really want adventures anyway, you just want raw materials; maps, NPCs and statistics. What does that have to do with expertise in the setting?

To understand my point, you'd have to agree with me that it takes more expertise to write an adventure than it does a campaign supplement. If we can agree on that, then I submit that companies that don't publish adventures are doing so for a reason, and one of them is lack of expertise. I'm sure one of them is economics too, but I think that's fallacious in the big scheme of things.

Exactly. And the way to court you is produce adventures; you've made that perfectly clear. Where you're wrong, IMO, is assuming that that is a univeral. That everyone else who might be interested in the setting will find adventures worthwhile, useful or compelling reasons to adopt the setting. If adventures were so important to "courting customers" then you can bet that more companies would use that as a strategy to get people to buy. The problem here is that it appears based on buying patterns observed historically that your opinion in this regard is the minority opinion. Most people apparently don't want adventures, or if they do, they're not buying them. You're posting as if you believe its a given that other customers are on the same page as you, and no doubt some are, but if that were a common demand from the customer base, campaign settings wouldn't outsell adventures to the degree that they do.

Errr, wait, what? When did I "assume that it is a universal"?

My original point is that I find the lack of adventures a detriment to me buying a company's campaign setting. I didn't assume that this was universal, I never used the word "universal." However, I am noticing that there are a lot of other people agreeing with me. A small sample size of course.

But the notion that "this is what game companies do now, so it must be right" is not something I agree with. Dungeons & Dragons, the 800 lb gorilla of gaming, has far more adventure support than just about every other RPG combined. It has free adventures AND Dungeon magazine, which alone produces reams of material. I would argue that strongly supports the notion that yes, adventures are critical to the industry's long-term success. Call of Cthulhu similarly has a significant pile of scenarios. As I mentioned earlier, Mongoose supports its products with its own magazine and so does Rifts. So yeah, big companies, companies with popular products, are doing the "right thing" in my opinion, by actively supporting their game lines with adventures.

Since we can bounce around all day by saying "my opinion" -- by all means please point out popular game lines that have no adventure support for them.

You're well within your rights to distrust any rules system or company for any reason you please.

Uhm...thank you?

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Atlas Games:
Seven Strongholds
Seven Cities
Seven Civilizations

Atlas also had a couple of other books like that. I own En Route II, which has saved my bacon on more than one occasion when the players decided to ignore plot hooks I had prepared for, or an adventure finished only an hour into the session and I needed something else to keep them occupied. One time my players came to the conclusion there was a significant connection between the mini-adventure and the "main" adventure they had just finished, rather than just a fun time-killer I had tossed in. It was such a great idea that I had to reward them by making it be true.

 

[MichaelSomething]

In a situation like this, it's best to let the classic elements of supply and demand take shape. If adventures are what the customer desires, then companies will make those. If settings are what the customer desires, then companies will make those.

From the looks of it here, there are people who want adventures and settings. Since there is a demand for both, both will be sold.