MerakSpielman
First Post
So you're saying that you're right and the book is wrong?Sir ThornCrest said:
Care to back that up?
if your DM gave you 200,000 in magicals-what would you buy?
- Thread starter Sir ThornCrest
- Start date
Care to back that up?
Terath Ninir
Yog Sothoth loves you
Ah, this all makes me nostalgic for the days when treasure was all about getting 1337 kewl new stuff, not cost accounting...
Just for you Sir Thorncrest, I threw this guy together in 10 mins. Note that alot of these items are mostly for comedy value, I kinda ran out of stuff to get (short of just raising the bonuses on his existing items, which would have given him higher ac, resists etc)
12th level Gnome Sorceror
Dognabbin the Mighty
Stats: 28 point buy, +3 cha from level raises
8 str, 16 dex (includes +2 gloves), 18 con (includes +2 amulet), 10 int, 10 wis, cha 23 (includes +4 cloak)
83k worth of items:
Masterworks longsword: 315 gp
Mithril Buckler +2: 5015 gp
Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt +2: 10k gp (Twilight is from BoED.. provides -10% ASF)
Ring of Deflection +2: 8000 gp
Cloak of Charisma +4: 16k gp
Ring of Resistance +2: 9k gp (note: not official item, but not a problem with most DMs)
Gloves of Dexterity +2: 4k gp
Amulet of Health +2: 4k gp
Boots of Striding and Springing: 5.5k
Carpet of Flying: 20k
A large chunk of these items is pretty frivolous, but Dognabbin is a frivolous gnome ! He likes to pretend he's a mighty fighter, then lash out with spells when the enemy least expects it. He was last seen charging a band of ogres on his flying carpet yelling 'For Justice!' in his best paladin imitation.
HP: 79 (max hp first level, then average after that.. +4x12 con bonus)
Init: +3
Movement: 30', carpet 40' fly
AC: 25 (+1 size, +3 dex, +2 deflection, +3 shield, +6 armour), 15 touch, 22 flatfooted
Saves: +11 fort, +10 reflex, +11 will
Armour Check Penalty and Arcane Spell Failure are both 0, so no need for shield or armour proficiency!
12th level Gnome Sorceror
Dognabbin the Mighty
Stats: 28 point buy, +3 cha from level raises
8 str, 16 dex (includes +2 gloves), 18 con (includes +2 amulet), 10 int, 10 wis, cha 23 (includes +4 cloak)
83k worth of items:
Masterworks longsword: 315 gp
Mithril Buckler +2: 5015 gp
Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt +2: 10k gp (Twilight is from BoED.. provides -10% ASF)
Ring of Deflection +2: 8000 gp
Cloak of Charisma +4: 16k gp
Ring of Resistance +2: 9k gp (note: not official item, but not a problem with most DMs)
Gloves of Dexterity +2: 4k gp
Amulet of Health +2: 4k gp
Boots of Striding and Springing: 5.5k
Carpet of Flying: 20k
A large chunk of these items is pretty frivolous, but Dognabbin is a frivolous gnome ! He likes to pretend he's a mighty fighter, then lash out with spells when the enemy least expects it. He was last seen charging a band of ogres on his flying carpet yelling 'For Justice!' in his best paladin imitation.
HP: 79 (max hp first level, then average after that.. +4x12 con bonus)
Init: +3
Movement: 30', carpet 40' fly
AC: 25 (+1 size, +3 dex, +2 deflection, +3 shield, +6 armour), 15 touch, 22 flatfooted
Saves: +11 fort, +10 reflex, +11 will
Armour Check Penalty and Arcane Spell Failure are both 0, so no need for shield or armour proficiency!
Victim
First Post
Sir ThornCrest said:
The problem here is that you think you think a wizard needs a Robe of the Archmagi. They don't generally. In most cases, if a character keeps a number of small items, they do fine. Also, buffing spells can replace items to some extent.
Hmm, as far as actual characters go... I know my 11th level cleric ended up with far more wealth than he should have. Our group ended up using item creation feats extensively, so we effectively generated wealth in that manner. Another part of the equation is that some of the more expensive items we found ended up in my hands (funny now that I think about, since I usually try not to appear greedy. Maybe they were rewarding me for all the buff spells Travanos cast on everyone). When 9th or 10th level characters find a helm of teleportation, someone's total wealth is going to be skewed, even if the total group wealth is going up at the expected rate. My 15th level wizard had a bit more than usual as well, since the DM assigned some items (we could choose between standard wealth that we picked, or around 1/2 standard that the player selects, and a bit more than half that the DM picks). I got a really nice magic sword with a +2 bonus, gave the weilder finess for the purposes of attacking with the sword, and added its enhancement bonus to spell related attack rolls. The last feature was the most useful; my character rolled a normal attack with the blade once or twice the entire campaign.
Sir ThornCrest
First Post
thats my point unless your specifically in a low magic campaign then your going to get reemed with a 23 AC at 13 th level. Not every mage is going to have a robe of the arch magi but it would be expected for him to have some like magical of equal cost and several others. If your going into a challenge rating 13 dungeon and the best thing your spell caster has is a cloak of charisma +4 then its audios muchacho! Your gonna be hard pressed to survive with anything let alone challenge the dungeon.
If your a 13th level fighter and you dont have saving throw enhancments to will and or ref your a gonner, unless your DM is fudging half of his dice rolls. There is way to much "save or die" or like spells and piosons etc at this level. And if you do then you probable cant afford the +2 +3 or higher sword armor shield etc. not to mention any special abilities you have.
A Wizard would barely be able to afford a respectable spell book with just a few mid to weak magicals if you only allowed 88,000, for total character expense.
Maybe Im wrong but any dungeon Ive gone thru or DM'd the pc's would of got smoked if they were restricted to the 88,000 at 13th level formula.
Thorncrest
If your a 13th level fighter and you dont have saving throw enhancments to will and or ref your a gonner, unless your DM is fudging half of his dice rolls. There is way to much "save or die" or like spells and piosons etc at this level. And if you do then you probable cant afford the +2 +3 or higher sword armor shield etc. not to mention any special abilities you have.
A Wizard would barely be able to afford a respectable spell book with just a few mid to weak magicals if you only allowed 88,000, for total character expense.
Maybe Im wrong but any dungeon Ive gone thru or DM'd the pc's would of got smoked if they were restricted to the 88,000 at 13th level formula.
Thorncrest
Sir ThornCrest said:
To be blunt: you're wrong.
You've posted a lot of questions over the last week or so. Collectively, these posts have shown that you are dealing with a gaming group that is highly customized. You follow rules that are a mixture of 2e and 3e rulesets, allow a lot of highly powered classes, and customize a lot of what you do (I am not the first person to voice this opinion). I don't doubt that over time your group has figured out a way to balance everything and have fun, but the set of rules you play with is far from standard. Accordingly, you can't expect your playing experience to match that of people who follow the core rules in designing games.
Notice that you are in the Rules forum. This is a place for people to go to discuss what the rules are, and how to use them. We're more than happy to help you with using the rules according to the SRD and Core rule books, but don't expect us to be able to always be able to interpret your house rules. And when you are doing things that are explicitly against what the rules say, expect people to call you on it. If you want help designing your own custom rules, try the House Rules forum.
In this case, the rules are quite explicit. The average wealth for a 12th level PC is 88,000 gold. This includes weapons, wondrous items, expendable items (such as wands), spell books, and everything else that includes a cost. The 3.5 system is designed for a party of level 12 PCs to be able to take on a CR 12 encounter with this much wealth and survive using about 25% of their resources. Needless to say 200,000g is substantially more than that.
You need to accept that you are not playing a standard game. That's fine. But please don't try and convince everyone else that the game you are playing is the same as the standard game described in the books, and is the type of game they should be playing.
Personally, I think the biggest problem that you're having with wealth is that you think it all has to come in big packages. In play, I have found that you will get the most bang for your buck if you have a very large amount of smaller (cost-wise) items than one really expensive one. I've played games where at level 13 I don't have a single item that cost more that 13,000g, and was still amazingly potent, both in terms of damage and survivability. If I was a caster in a campaign that game 200,000 gold at 12th level, I would probably start (after purchasing the spell book) by buying every single mundane item there was. After that, wands of every single utility spell I could find. From there, I'd move on to staffs, and a few scrolls. Next, I'd go to storage items and survival items. Only after all that would I start looking at items like the Robe of the Magi.
Last edited:
Sir ThornCrest said:
In the future you should ask "What magical items would you pick for a Commoner 3/Wizard 12?" 200k is exactly recommended for a 15th level character, your commoner levels do nothing (so the recommendation will apply equally well to your “true” level 12 Wizard) and you avoid a lot of message board bickering.
Here’s my take on all of this: as I have pointed out twice on this thread, your character is going to be ridiculously powerful if you optimize your 200k of items at all well. At the same time, given your preference for “A Robe of the Archmagi and a mid-level ring” as what to spend 88000 gp on, you clearly have no idea how to optimize items.
Given that you either have no idea how to optimize items or simply choose incredibly un-optimized items, your 200k of items should leave you with a perfectly normal powered character. You can probably give yourself over 300k of items- a Ring of Elemental Command, a Robe of the Archmagi, a Ring of Deflection +4 and a Boccob’s Blessed Book is probably roughly as good as 110k of well chosen items.
Everyone who is going on about how this is not “standard” seems to be missing the point as well. Sure, this campaign has a lot of treasure. However, if you buy Rings of Elemental Command (truly one of the worst items ever for the price), your character needs a lot of treasure. Think of the extra treasure as an “inefficiency bonus.”
Here’s my challenge to anyone: find me good magical items for a 12th level Wizard or Sorceror (with 250k of items) who has a Ring of Elemental Command (I’ll let you pick which one). I bet that you can create a character with 100k of items who doesn’t have to choose a Ring of Elemental Command who is more powerful (showing that, at least for 12th level characters, a Ring of Elemental Command isn’t worth anything)
Also, if someone doesn’t have to pay for Wizard spells I don’t see that as a big deal. Sure it might be pricy. On the other hand, keeping track of a spellbook, spells memorized, the gold costs of everything (including items you can create, the exp you lose) and so on seems to be an incredible pain in the neck. Ignoring rules that you feel are a pain in the neck and don’t contribute a lot to the game shouldn’t be considered a “house rule” unworthy of discussion in the Rules forum- it is just common sense.
Elric said:
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the reason people are obsessing over the amount of gold isn't because they can't accept it. People are discussing it with ThornCrest because he's trying to tell everyone that 200,00 the standard amount of gold for a 12th level character. If he had started the thread by saying "I know this is a lot of gold, but help me anyway", I doubt it would be a major topic of discussion.
And as for optimization, I was under the impression that the reason ThornCrest posted the thread was so that we could help him optimize his gold. Sure, we could tell him some unoptimized builds, but I don't think that would really serve the purpose of the thread. It deserves being noted that 200,000g can make a really darn powerful 12th level character, and this fact is (again) something that ThornCrest is disputing.
Deset Gled said:
Fair enough. I agree that the purpose of the thread being to "optimize 200k of gold" doesn't work very well with the idea that "my character should end up somewhat balanced." If you choose magic items in an unoptimized way, though, 200k may make you effectively just as powerful as a character with 88k of well chosen items.
Huh ? Ac 25 is pretty decent for an unbuffed lvl 12 wizard. Wizards aren't meant to be taking a lot of hits. If you're really that obsessed about it tho, you could instead go for :
mithril buckler +4 17015 gp
twilight mithril shirt +3 17100 gp
Ring of Deflection +2 8000 gp
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 5000 gp
Gloves of Dexterity +4 16000 gp
This leaves 25k for other stats, resists etc and gives above sorceror an ac of 30 (18 touch, 26 flatfooted). This is pretty much as good as it gets at that level, and if you need more than that, you're doing something wrong.
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