Ignoble Death by Ray of Frost!?!

[Gaiden]

Hong,

I just spent an hour and half writing up my previous post so as to provide rational debate to a forum where there is a real disagreement.

I have provided a quote that I think you might find informative:

I do not wish to spend time arguing this point, so if you disagree, just consider it 5 attacks.

This was in reference to the rapid shot giving the extra attack which would make the 5 attacks, 6 attacks.

Moreover, how is 7 or 8 (with rapid shot) attacks ridiculous at 14th to 16th level?

Here is my breakdown:

Iterive attacks yeild 3,
Offhand attacks yeild 2,
Haste yeilds 1
Expert Tactician yeilds 1
Rapid Shot yeilds 1

 

[Storm Raven]

Not to derail the discussion, but why? I can understand not liking energy sub(sonic) but I like the rest of them. They let you elemental-theme a caster without inventing new spells. There are far more elemental resistances than there are weaknesses, so it seems balanced.

Energy Sub (Sonic) isn't that bad overall. There are not many creatures with sonic resistance to be sure, but there are not many creatures with sonic vulnerability either. I'd much rather have Energy Sub (Cold) when facing fire giants for example.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I just spent an hour and half writing up my previous post.

Here is my breakdown:

Iterive attacks yeild 3,
Offhand attacks yeild 2,
Haste yeilds 1
Expert Tactician yeilds 1
Rapid Shot yeilds 1 [/B]

A Rog 13/Rgr 1 has a BAB of +10. Only two iterative attacks. His third one doesn't kick in until you add those two extra levels.

Maybe spend two hours next time

-Hyp.

 

[Gaiden]

The statement: no smackdown is ever 100% accurate the first try, I guess holds true yet again.

Maybe spend two hours next time

Sorry about that - stupid error on my part (IDHMBWM).

Fortunately that would only reduce the total damage by 18 points and so is fairly irrelevant to the final conclusion (but point granted).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Gaiden,

Your post boils down to a vague game balance argument that Twinned spells should cause two SAs. IMNSHO you don't have a prayer of convincing anyone that way.

The comparison with Expert Tactician is patently silly. ExpTac is generally regarded as one of the best feats in the game. Furthermore the rogue using ExpTac is relying on melee attacks which have the significant downsides (must succed with melee hit against normal AC, must enter enemy threat zone, melee attack reveals location, might be killed by full attack if opponent survives, etc.).

You want to have your cake and eat it, too -- gain all the benefits of ranged SAs without the downsides. I see no good reason that ranged spell specialist AT should have a feat equivalent in power to Expert Tactician; in fact every fiber of my common sense says otherwise. If Expert Tactician or Rapid Shot aren't good enough then tough cookies in my book.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Energy Sub (Sonic) isn't that bad overall. There are not many creatures with sonic resistance to be sure, but there are not many creatures with sonic vulnerability either. I'd much rather have Energy Sub (Cold) when facing fire giants for example.

The REAL fundamental problem is that the design of the monsters has created a strong imbalance in the usefulness of the various energy types.

Energy Sub Sonic is offensive (to some DMs) because it is a no brainer. The reason it is a no brainer is sloppy monster design.

If energy vulnerabilities were as common as resistances and immunities, or these resistances were less predictable, choosing a favorite energy would be a more interesting and fun exercise.

DMs: Don't fault the players for reacting intelligently to a game design problem; pull out your whiteout and pen and fix the problem in the MM.

 

[hong]

The comparison with Expert Tactician is patently silly. ExpTac is generally regarded as one of the best feats in the game. Furthermore the rogue using ExpTac is relying on melee attacks which have the significant downsides (must succed with melee hit against normal AC, must enter enemy threat zone, melee attack reveals location, might be killed by full attack if opponent survives, etc.).

Not to mention he's stacking Exp Tactician with haste, which has been disallowed, and for some arcane reason is stacking Rapid Shot with TWF. I guess he must be clubbing the target with dual-wielded hand crossbows, or something.

 

[jontherev]

Not to mention he's stacking Exp Tactician with haste, which has been disallowed, and for some arcane reason is stacking Rapid Shot with TWF. I guess he must be clubbing the target with dual-wielded hand crossbows, or something.

Disallowed? Since when? I don't remember reading this in the latest FAQ. Furthermore, why? I agree with you on stacking RS and TWF. I don't see how these 2 feats interact, or why one would even want to.

Gaiden, allowing this is too unbalancing imo. On one hand you have a rogue with umpteen melee attacks suffering possible annihilation from a counter full attack. On the other hand, you have a flying, improved invisible, AT flinging 6 TOUCH attacks per round (for a few rounds anyway). Throw a Ring of Wizardy in there for more mayhem. The point is, melee rogues have to risk a lot to get their damage. If they don't finish their foe off in one or two rounds, they could be dead. Oh, and not to mention that the rogue has to take Combat Reflexes before Expert Tactician, which sucks unless you use a reach weapon (something halfling rogues don't use often). My rogue has only used Combat Reflexes like twice over about 6 levels (levels 9-14). He's almost never flat-footed...so for MY character, Expert Tactician essentially cost 2 feats...still worth it though.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not to mention he's stacking Exp Tactician with haste, which has been disallowed...

Seriously? When did that happen? Is it an FAQ addition?

I'd be interested to hear the logic behind it...

... and for some arcane reason is stacking Rapid Shot with TWF. I guess he must be clubbing the target with dual-wielded hand crossbows, or something.

Actually, I don't have a problem with that.

If he's attacking with two daggers, say, he can make his full iterative ITWF attack. Rapid shot allows him to make an extra ranged attack, with a -2 penalty to all attacks in the round. If he takes a -2 penalty to his full iterative ITWF attack, I have no problem with his throwing one of his daggers (and risking an AoO for making a ranged attack, if his flat-footed target has Combat Reflexes) as his Rapid Shot attack.

-Hyp.

 

[hammymchamham]

expert tactician REALLY only becomes over powered with rings of blinking or while invisible.