D&D 4E I'll say one thing for 4E... It is more accessible.

[samursus]

Would also like to add my 2 cp. Anyone else notice how EASY it is to create new BALANCED powers for any class?? All you have to do is come up with a COOL idea, and find a similar power among the hundreds? of class powers to compare it to. If it seems pretty close effect-wise... its probably balanced. This allows you to easily create any class flavour/mechanic that suites your game.

Case in point:

My brother made up his first 4e char, a Tiefling Cleric of the Raven Queen. Uses a scythe. From the DMG, I am changing his Radiant damage spells from a bright white light to a darker purple to reflect the Raven Queens mileu. He asked about Controlling Undead instead of Turning..I said "Nope, can't do that this time around." Then some enterprising board poster came up with a Channel Divinity power called Army of the Raven Queen... causes some corpses on the battlefield to become animated Minions under the Clerics control.

I was shocked at how easy it was to create this power, eyeball it's balance, and try it out.

Not to mention the assuredly greater options that will come in future books, I just don't see the "big problem" with mechanics customization. But I can vaguely see what Lizard et al. are talking about. I guess that just goes to show you how many different ways there are to enjoy the game.

I, for one, am happy that this time around, the actual gameplay, pro-DM stance has been taken by WOTC. Although I found 3.5 a good read, as I began to run it, I found I just didn't have the time to do it right... played for less than a year then didn't touch it anymore. 4e has happily brought me back to D&D.

 

[Agamon]

Would also like to add my 2 cp. Anyone else notice how EASY it is to create new BALANCED powers for any class?? All you have to do is come up with a COOL idea, and find a similar power among the hundreds? of class powers to compare it to. If it seems pretty close effect-wise... its probably balanced. This allows you to easily create any class flavour/mechanic that suites your game.

Case in point:

My brother made up his first 4e char, a Tiefling Cleric of the Raven Queen. Uses a scythe. From the DMG, I am changing his Radiant damage spells from a bright white light to a darker purple to reflect the Raven Queens mileu. He asked about Controlling Undead instead of Turning..I said "Nope, can't do that this time around." Then some enterprising board poster came up with a Channel Divinity power called Army of the Raven Queen... causes some corpses on the battlefield to become animated Minions under the Clerics control.

I was shocked at how easy it was to create this power, eyeball it's balance, and try it out.

This is something I'm not sold on yet. Making a slightly unbalanced monster or trap isn't too big a deal, it's a one shot thing. But even a slightly unbalanced power makes for problems. I don't even want to use new official sources because I'm not sure how things will work together (well, and I want to keep things simple, too).

 

[ryryguy]

That's an interesting point. It's almost like the designers made a deliberate attempt to turn character building into a cooperative exercise, so that it could be done as part of the game.

For example, in earlier editions, character building was mostly something that was done away from the table and (beyond making sure all the bases are covered) independently of the other people in the group. As a DM, I often had people just make characters and bring them to the first game.

With 4th Edition, it looks like we're into a game where building a party can be a group activity involving all the players. They meet, talk about what they want to play, and then pick their feats, powers and skills to complement one another. In other words, they've turned even character building into an activity that the whole group can enjoy and do together.

I agree...

Furthermore, the "gearheads" who have enjoyed 3.x character creation and optimization as a solo activity may feel disappointed at first. But maybe they will eventually start to appreciate the forest as well as the trees, and start to enjoy solo party building in 4e as much or even more...

 

[Mirtek]

That makes it sound like you're not a new player though?

Yet I am still sceptical whether it's really as accessible to new players or if it only makes new players believe it's more accessible. So the new players only think they have an easy made character because they aren't noticing all the later snags to it.

 

[Pbartender]

If I say, "My character is a sneak; he has spent his life focusing on being stealthy and quiet", then, I ought to be able to reflect this. In 3e, you not only max out H/MS, you take Stealth and SF in both skills, then make sure you keep pouring skill points into them. In 4e...you can get Trained and SF, and that's pretty much it. Your max difference between you and someone else with the same dex and no training is 8, and this won't change from first level to thirtieth. This is a deliberate design element of 4e; the range between the specialist and everyone else is very small, relative to 3e.

...

The cost of not sucking at anything, though, is not being great at anything, either.

Allow me to expand on LostSouls' example...

How Not To Be Seen, An Elf Rogue in 4E:

Out Of Combat:

• Stealth, trained: +5
• Skill Focus feat: +3
• Light Step feat: +1
• Skillful Infiltrator (11th level Paragon Path feature): +2
• Secret Stride feat: No penalties to Stealth, when moving full speed.

Total bonus +11, not including your Dexterity modifier.
Assuming we purchase a Dexterity of 18, we gain an additional +2 from being an Elf, for a starting Dexterity bonus of +5. By the time we gain 11th level (which is the soonest we can aquire all the abilities listed above), we can raise Dexterity by another +3, for a total score of 23, and a bonus of +6.

So, at Level 11, we have a Stealth Skill of +22. Another party member, untrained in Stealth and with no other feats or abilities to enhance it, would have a Stealth check of +5, not including their Dexterity modifier.

At 30th Level, if you kept pumping up Dexterity, your Stealth check would be +35 (+11 bonuses, +9 Dex, +15 Level).

Also, In Combat:

• Fleeting Ghost, Rogue Utility 2, At-Will, Move: Move your speed and make a Stealth check, no penalty for movement.
• Chameleon, Rogue Utility 6, At-Will, Imm Int: When you lose cover or concealment when hiding, make a Stealth check to stay hidden.
• Shadow Stride, Rogue Utility 10, At-Will, Move: When hiding, move your speed. If you have cover at the end of that movement, make a Stealth check with no penalty for movement. If successful, you stay hidden while moving.
• Hide in Plain Sight, Rogue Utility 16, Encounter, Move: When hidden, you areinvisible until you leave your square. No other action makes you visible.
• Hide from the Light, Rogue Utility 22, Daily, Minor: When hidden, you are invisible until the end of the encounter or until you move more than 2 squares or use any attack other than a basic attack or an at-will attack.
• Ghost on the Wind, Rogue Attack 25, Daily, Standard: On a hit, deal lots of damage, move to any square adjacent to the enemy, and become invisible until the start of your next turn.
• Impossible to Catch, Master Infiltrator Ultility 12, Encounter, Minor: Become invisible until the start of your next turn.

That's not too shabby, especially for using just the 4E PHB.


By contrast, using only the 3.5 PHB, aside from maxing out your Dexterity, and maxing out Hide and Move Silently as Class skills, you'd get a bonus for being Small-sized, there was the Stealthy feat, the Skill Focus feat (take it twice, once for each skill), Camouflage (Ranger, 13th), and Hide in Plain Sight (Ranger 17th).

Rogues had no options at all for special abilities involving stealth, aside from those two feats that give flat bonuses.

 

[Lizard]

Allow me to expand on LostSouls' example...

Thanks. Pretty cool.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

The build options I've seen in the PHB are just that OPTIONS. One can still build their character any way they want to.

Looking back to 3.x there were alot of classes that had their build options as well, it seems that people just aren't remembering. In fact "out of the box" there were only 2 classes with ANY options during building.

Monk: Tripping, stunning, Arrow deflecting, or grapple master
Ranger: Bow and arrow, or 2 weapon ranger

The rest of character concept came from feats which, in case you didn't notice, STILL exist in 4E giving 4E MORE options for character build than 3.x.

Don't look at "Build options" as restrictions as to "Here are the only things you can do with your character" Look at them like "here are a couple suggestions we have for your character"

 

[Pbartender]

Thanks. Pretty cool.

No problem... Glad I could help.

 

[Dronehound]

Actually, I find it less accessible. Older editions, you could run games with nothing than the PHB, DMG and MM, a few sheets, dices and pencils. Now it's impossible to run combat without a battlemap and some minis/counters. To me that makes the game a lot less accessible.