Illusions, Zombies, and Golems

[pawsplay]

While we're at it: can a shadow evocation spell affect an unattended item?

Naturally. Shadow spells use the actual material of the Plane of Shadow.

 

[Particle_Man]

I think his question was whether, when a shadow spell with 20% reality is cast at an object (a tree). What happens:

a) The tree is affected by the spell at 20% power, no save needed.
b) The tree is affected by the spell at full power, no save allowed.
c) The tree gets a will save when the tree interacts with the spell.

I would go with option b, because looking at option c, I don't think that the tree, or any other object, "interacts" with anything, nor is a will save stat usually listed with objects like trees. (As opposed to creatures like animated objects). So no save allowed, so full power to the shadow spell.

I could see people going the other way, saying that it is the victim's belief that gives the shadow spell its power over the victim. But I would say, rather, that it is the victim's disbelief that gives the victim power over the shadow spell.

Just my take on it.

Now it gets more interesting when shadow evocation is used to create a torch. Those who fail their will save actually get more benefit from the torch than those who make their will saves.

 

[juliaromero]

As much as this whole shadow evocation topic is interressting, I would appreciate my thread not being hijacked for other issues. It's hard enough to get good coherrent replies to a hard question without endless side discussions. If you wish to discuss other topics, I ask that you please start another thread.

Thank you.

 

[AuraSeer]

As much as this whole shadow evocation topic is interressting, I would appreciate my thread not being hijacked for other issues. It's hard enough to get good coherrent replies to a hard question without endless side discussions. If you wish to discuss other topics, I ask that you please start another thread.

You already got your answers, in the very first reply. Mindless creatures get the same disbelief save as anyone else, which is once as soon as they interact with the illusion.

If you're saying this is not the answer you wanted, perhaps you should start a thread in House Rules.

 

[juliaromero]

You already got your answers, in the very first reply. Mindless creatures get the same disbelief save as anyone else, which is once as soon as they interact with the illusion.

If you're saying this is not the answer you wanted, perhaps you should start a thread in House Rules.

I got one person's opinion in the first answer. It was a good answer, but one random person's opinion is hardly a good discussion or exploration of the topic. I hoping for a variety of opions on the question, or least others chiming in to agree with that interpretation (not that I'm devaluing particle man's opinion in any way). I haven't been able to find anything clear in the rules about it, and no one has been bringing up specific rules issues. This seems to be a matter of rules interpreation, which does not fall under house rules, and as such would benefit from a variety of angles and opinions.

And see, here we go again, once again someone has helped turn this thread away from a discussion of the topic I was trying to get into ... now it's a discussion about the discussion. Fun.

Can people who post in the future here please (I'm trying to ask nicely) address my original topics, or if you feel you have nothing more to add or contribute to that disucussion avoid this thread? Thank you. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, I'm trying to start a discussion about something I deem to be a gray area in the rules, as I am the one who started this thread I feel my requests are quite reasonable. You are all free to start the "Julia is a bitch" thread or whatever if you don't like it, that's your perogative, but please keep posts here to my topic. Thank you.

 

[Staffan]

Can people who post in the future here please (I'm trying to ask nicely) address my original topics, or if you feel you have nothing more to add or contribute to that disucussion avoid this thread? Thank you.

Julia, please chill a bit. Thread drift is a fact of life on message boards, and it's not as if "how much does shadow magic affect objects" is all that far from your original question.

I'm trying to start a discussion about something I deem to be a gray area in the rules,

FWIW, I don't see it as a gray area. I agree with what has been said so far in the thread: even mindless beings have the capacity for processing sensory information, so they are treated just the same as regular beings for the purpose of disbelieving figments, glamers and shadow magic.

 

[AuraSeer]

It is not a matter of interpretation. The rules are clear.

The general rule is that an effect works on all creatures equally, and that a creature gets exactly one save against a given effect. That is how things work unless otherwise designated.

No rule says mindless creatures automatically fail their saves against illusions. Unless you can find such a rule and cite it, mindless creatures get the same save as everyone else.

No rule says creatures get multiple saves against an illusion spell. Unless you can point to such a rule in the book, an illusion spell works like everything else, and allows exactly one save. [Edited to clarify: If one victim disbelieves the illusion, and tells other victims about it, those others are allowed another saving throw. This appears to be the only case in which a second disbelief save are allowed.]

This may sound pedantic, but I'm just trying to be clear. Your original questions were answered, and there's little or no room for argument, which is why people have drifted off on tangents,

 

[AuraSeer]

I think his question was whether, when a shadow spell with 20% reality is cast at an object (a tree). What happens:

a) The tree is affected by the spell at 20% power, no save needed.
b) The tree is affected by the spell at full power, no save allowed.
c) The tree gets a will save when the tree interacts with the spell.

The descriptions of shadow evocation and shadow conjuration state that objects automatically succeed on their Will saves. So for these spells, and their various greater versions, the answer is A.

AFAIK those are the only Illusion(Shadow) spells in the SRD that affect objects, so I don't know whether other quasi-real effects grant the automatic success. If they don't, objects would roll their own saves just like creatures. (Unattended objects would then automatically fail and be affected, but magic or attended objects would actually get a die roll.)

 

[Particle_Man]

Can people who post in the future here please (I'm trying to ask nicely) address my original topics, or if you feel you have nothing more to add or contribute to that disucussion avoid this thread? Thank you. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, I'm trying to start a discussion about something I deem to be a gray area in the rules, as I am the one who started this thread I feel my requests are quite reasonable. You are all free to start the "Julia is a bitch" thread or whatever if you don't like it, that's your perogative, but please keep posts here to my topic. Thank you.

We can't start the thread you suggested. Eric's Grandmother wouldn't like it.

So, just to annoy Julia,

If you had a line of creatures, named after the letters of the alphabet, and an illusion, and creature A saved, but the others did not, and then A told the others "it is just an illusion" so the others got a second save, and B saved, but the others did not, then, if in the next round B told the others "it is just an illusion" would C, D, etc. get a third save? Or is one "bonus" save all you get, and if you fail the second time you are hosed until you get "incontrovertible proof"?

 

[Zaruthustran]

My group has a gnome sorcerer that specializes in illusions (that's the non-jargon use of the word "specialize"). Trust me, we've spent plenty of time discussing illusion rules.

The first surprising thing we found was that undead are affected by certain illusions. Like figments:

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation.

Any creature that percieves sensation is vulnerable to a figment, unless otherwise specified in that creature's description. Ask Morphues or Nea about the power of false sensory input and how it affect behavior/belief.

Here's how to resolve the will save:

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

So, that's NO SAVE unless you interact with it, or study it carefully. Proof that an illusion isn't real would be something like walking through an illusory wall. Or, if you're feeling generous, it could be swinging a weapon right through that illusion of a soldier. It's not hard to do:

A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Clever illusionists solve that problem by making illusions of wraiths, ethereal adventurers, and other incorporeal foes. Or making illusions of a solid creature that happens to have Blur or other concealment defense up. This plausibly explains why an attacker's blows never seem to connect. High level illusions can

Note that even a missed attack counts as interaction, however, and entitles the attacker to a save.

-z