I'm done with 3.5

[borc killer]

I also don’t understand the AOO hate. They are simple rules that flow well in my game.

However we play a very tactical game and I have no desire to play in a low tactics game. So 3.5 works great for me.

As for high level combat being hard to run? Yep. It is. Doing ANYTHING at a high level is hard, be that coding or playing in the NBA. But that is also fun for some of us.

 

[Grimstaff]

I totally sympathize with the burn-out sentiment. When left unchecked, adding another and another and another splat book to the campaign slowly sucks the adventure out of it, replacing it with a maudlin jumble of numbers, cross-referencing, and counter-intuition. Suspension of disbelief is the key to any sort of fantasy escape, so you really have to decide if your game is more in line with enjoying a good movie or novel, or if you want it more in line with an Avalon Hill boardgame.

Limiting my game to the 3 core books only solved alot of those problems, as well as drastically cutting back on the AoO nonsense. IMHO, AoO is based on the assumption that anyone engaged in combat is a moron. Cunning and deadly predators stupidly cut through "threatened squares", mighty sorcerers have no concept of how to cast a simple magic missle at the orc in front of him without taking a spear to the forehead (granted, he can stop play in its tracks and make a token Concentration check, but isn't that somewhat akin to making a Walking check to get back out of the dungeon?), and mindless gelatinous cubes suddenly get more attacks per round because someone walks within 5 feet of their quivering, ensensate mass. I simply "rule-zeroed" that unless someone or something does something spectacularly stupid, I'm going to assume they have the reflexes a 9th level fighter or 8HD monster should have, and ignore all the AoO chaff.

 

[Zaruthustran]

If you added on a dozen other D&D books to the table and are now complaining about it, that's your fault.

Some gamers, in order to fully enjoy a game, feel a need to play the *complete* game. So if a new book comes out, they buy it and try to use it.

Sure, you could pass on Complete Divine or whatever. But that'd be like trying to play basketball without the 3-point field goal. Or like playing Magic: The Gathering with only a single starter deck. It's not the full game.

So yeah, bloat is absolutely 3.5's fault.

I agree with the OP. Creating a character in 3.5 is a nightmare. Way too many options; it's analysis paralysis. And it hurts the game: no player will attempt to trip unless their character has Improved Trip. No player will attempt a kick without Improved Unarmed. No one will use a two-hander without Power Attack, or wield two weapons without TWF. The irony is that the specialized "options" actually limit player choice.

It's awful. 3.5 was a great system and we learned a lot, but boy am I ready for 4e.

-z

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

If it were just AoO's that would be one thing. The OP defined his problem as "rules bloat" though -- and I certainly sympathise.

The AoO rules aren't a problem, but for many of us, they're a symptom.

 

[Eltharon]

But that'd be like trying to play basketball without the 3-point field goal.

Trying to play basketball without what??

 

[Meeki]

Some gamers, in order to fully enjoy a game, feel a need to play the *complete* game. So if a new book comes out, they buy it and try to use it.

Sure, you could pass on Complete Divine or whatever. But that'd be like trying to play basketball without the 3-point field goal. Or like playing Magic: The Gathering with only a single starter deck. It's not the full game.

So yeah, bloat is absolutely 3.5's fault.

I agree with the OP. Creating a character in 3.5 is a nightmare. Way too many options; it's analysis paralysis. And it hurts the game: no player will attempt to trip unless their character has Improved Trip. No player will attempt a kick without Improved Unarmed. No one will use a two-hander without Power Attack, or wield two weapons without TWF. The irony is that the specialized "options" actually limit player choice.

It's awful. 3.5 was a great system and we learned a lot, but boy am I ready for 4e.

-z

I feel complete and utterly opposite. As I mentioned before D&D is ran off of a D20 system and the vast amounts of open source material is suppose to be used to create your own supplements BUT there are only 3 core books and they contain SUGGESTED rules. Splat books do NOT need to be used and I feel have NEVER added any necessary mechanics. If you want something create it, you do NOT need a splat book EVER. They are just out there so people do not have to create every single new thing. Even if you buy the books that does NOT mean the DM will allow them and that doesn't mean they are balanced.

Its more like playing magic the gathering and not purchasing 3 of the 100 expansions. You definitely do not need them.

My group plays with bits from various splat books but I never allow a whole book, ever. I dont feel it necessary. Also, read some of the book before you blindly go out and buy it.

 

[Grimstaff]

Of course, you can really simplify things with:
http://wiki.greywulf.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Macropedia/Microlite20Downloads

 

[Imaro]

Heh. D&D core 3 book d20 can still be pretty cumbersome and mechanically wearying even without adding anything else. Make an ambush encounter with high level drow NPCs, fighters, clerics, and wizards who have spells going. There are lots of little situtation specific details to keep track of. How much work and time does it take to make the stat blocks? How difficult is it to track everything in the combat as a DM? When dispels start getting thrown how much does this complicate the stat blocks you now have to work with?

So I would disagree that the issue is using every book.

QFT. I think most people don't realize how intimidating the PHB alone can be to someone whose never played before, or to a DM whose trying to step up to bat for the first time. There's alot of information, rules, nuances, etc. to remember. I think stating that 3.5 only gets complex when you add sourcebooks is understating the issue.

Yes it's based on a simple mechanic...roll d20+mod and see if you beat DC,but that's not all of it. First, there's remembering where all these modifiers come from as well as what ability determines what. There's the differences between saving throws and skill/ability checks(why doesn't my jump skill or my tumbling skill help me dodge a mechanical trap?). Then there's the "tactical" nature of combat, where rules like AoO...diagonal movement, criticals, reach, etc. must be remembered and applied. The different uses for different skills. Spells, feats, etc. etc.

 

[rowport]

Some gamers, in order to fully enjoy a game, feel a need to play the *complete* game. So if a new book comes out, they buy it and try to use it.

Sure, you could pass on Complete Divine or whatever. But that'd be like trying to play basketball without the 3-point field goal. Or like playing Magic: The Gathering with only a single starter deck. It's not the full game.

So yeah, bloat is absolutely 3.5's fault.

I agree with the OP. Creating a character in 3.5 is a nightmare. Way too many options; it's analysis paralysis. And it hurts the game: no player will attempt to trip unless their character has Improved Trip. No player will attempt a kick without Improved Unarmed. No one will use a two-hander without Power Attack, or wield two weapons without TWF. The irony is that the specialized "options" actually limit player choice.

It's awful. 3.5 was a great system and we learned a lot, but boy am I ready for 4e.

-z

I do not agree with the OP about "rules bloat" being such a problem in D&D 3.5, but I am entirely cool with him choosing to play something else (either just now or even forever). That is no loss to me one way or the other. But your blaming the *system* for being too complex based on the questionable logic that if a rule book exists, you must use it, makes no sense whatsoever. And, while I have not seen a 4E book any more than you have, I sincerely doubt that you will find it *less* complex than 3.5E, which seems to be your main objection to the game. Why not just use the core books? It is not like the WOTC police will show up at your door, giving you the inquision why you do not have the Complete Barmaid at your table.

 

[jdrakeh]

http://www.basicfantasy.org/
Like the Basic/Expert edition

I'll second that recommendation and direct you to the creator-blessed fan-development forum (click the link in my .sig). It' s a bit slow currently because it just opened and due to my home PC crash, I haven't been able to give it as much love as it deserves (look for this to change shortly, however).