I'm going to make a "Tome of Battle" character. Swordsage? Warblade? Advice?

[aboyd]

I have a coworker coming by next weekend to play in a game of D&D 3.5. He has never played any D&D ever. He has asked me to build him a character. We are a 6 person group with all the normal classes covered (rogue, fighter, sorcerer, ranger, cleric, bard). So, I'm thinking it's time to do a Tome of Battle character (crusader, sword sage, or warblade).

The limitations: we are playing at 4th level and will end at 5th, get standard WBL gold, and are a fairly neutral group in terms of alignment (no paladins, but no evil characters either). Since it's only played at 4th & 5th level, I really only care to put together a character that is good at those levels. If a character sucks at 4th but will be awesome at 20th, that character isn't right for this game.

So, what class would you recommend, and what abilities do you think are most fun? I'm thinking the crusader sucks for such a neutral group, but I honestly don't know. I'm open to anything. Thank you guys for any advice!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

1-Warblade
2-Warblade
3-Warblade
4-Warblade
5-Crusader

 

[kitcik]

Warblade due to the quick maneuver refresh. You can use the cool stuff, like Pouncing Charge, more than once in a battle.

Sudden Leap and Battle Jump (feat) are a great combo if you pump your Jump skill.

Two stances at once as a capstone is pretty cool, so you can mono-class and keep it simple.

EDIT: and, of course, Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics...

 

[aboyd]

All right. I've got HeroForge up, and Warblade in. I'm looking for stances, maneuvers, and magic items. Keep those suggestions coming!

EDIT: OK, I have finished working on the 1st level of the Warblade. This character took the Iron Heart "Punishing Stance" for his stance. Then took "Charging Minotaur" and "Stone Bones" maneuvers from the Stone Dragon school. And finally took the "Steel Wind" (hit 2 enemies with a standard attack) maneuver from the Iron Heart school.

I'll build out the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th levels tonight. When I hit 4th, I can drop one of my 1st-level maneuvers and replace it with a 2nd-level maneuver. Ideas for any of this?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

If the game ends at 5th level, you want to be single classed to get that 3rd level maneuver. Especially if a Warblade or Crusader, as that manuever can be White Raven Tactics. The only crappy thing is due to both of those classes having messed up stance progressions, you'll never get to enjoy a 3rd level stance. Oh well.

Crusader is boring but effective, IMO. Their maneuver granted mechanic might be too big a pain for you to care to learn.

Warblade is the best damage dealer and can take a hit w/ his d12, though his AC tends to be pathetic and thus still manages to feel almost like a "glass canon." Almost.

Swordsage has the most maneuvers and gets some really interesting options, but lacks access to BOTH of the 2 best maneuvers in the game - WR Tactics and Iron Heart Surge. The BAB also kind of hurts, as does the awful refresh mechanic (Adaptive Style is basically a required feat for them...like, to a far greater extent than Natural Spell is a "hidden class feature" is to druids; they cannot function without it).

Have you looked at the disciplines at all? Are there any you particularly like? That'd be the best way to figure out what class to play. You can basically focus in two and get a fair amount of maneuvers from each; might be able to dip a tiny bit into a 3rd or 4th for like 1 maneuver or stance. Swordsage can pretty easily go into up to 3 different disciplines.

Since Swordsage w/ Adaptive Style is the most "jack of all trades"-y of the 3 and given your party, I'd probably suggest playing that class unless you really like White Raven, Iron Heart, and/or Devoted Spirit a lot.

 

[Dandu]

If the game ends at 5th level, you want to be single classed to get that 3rd level maneuver. Especially if a Warblade or Crusader, as that manuever can be White Raven Tactics. The only crappy thing is due to both of those classes having messed up stance progressions, you'll never get to enjoy a 3rd level stance. Oh well.

It's not a bug, it's a feature! The stances were made that way to encourage people to dip two levels in Fighter, Monk, or Paladin before taking the ToB classes.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, at least Swordsage gets a new stance at the right times. Like at 5th level.

It's recovery mechanic is ridiculously borked, but at least you'll never have to multiclass or spend feats to get the next tier of stances when you're supposed to.

 

[aboyd]

Have you looked at the disciplines at all? Are there any you particularly like? That'd be the best way to figure out what class to play.

Ah. I was editing my previous post at the same time that you were writing this. Yes, I figured out quite a bit by now. I selected Warblade. For first level I have:

• Iron Heart "Punishing Stance"
• Iron Heart "Steel Wind"
• Stone Dragon "Charging Minotaur"
• Stone Dragon "Stone Bones"

I have not built the 2nd through 4th levels yet, although after writing this I'll probably get the 2nd level done before bed. I'll do levels 3 & 4 tomorrow, I think.

I would love tips on what extra stances/maneuvers to take, as well as which to swap out at 4th level.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

A sample level 4 Swordsage. Using Wood Elf and 32 point buy

Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8

Feats:
1 Adaptive Style
1 Weapon Focus (Desert Wind) [Swordsage]
3 Desert Wind Dodge

Maneuvers (9 known; 5 readied)
1 Distracting Ember (DW, S)
1 Counter Charge (SS, C)
1 Mighty Throw (SS, S)
1 Shadow Blade Technique (SH, S)
1 Charging Minotaur (SD, S)
1 Sudden Leap (TC, B)
2 Fire Riposte (DW, C)
2 Cloak of Deception (SH, B)
2 Mountain Hammer (SD, S)
Note: At level 4, you traded Wolf Fang Strike for Fire Riposte

Stances:
1 Child of Shadow (SH; Gain 20% concealment every round you move 10+ ft)
1 Hunter's Sense (TC; Gain Scent 30 ft)

Level 5: Gain another maneuver known (Shadow Garrote) and readied, and learn a stance (Holocaust Cloak).

Basically a very varied list of options, slightly oriented towards fire attacks. Uses a falchion and skirmishes around (only has one attack per round anyway), flames constantly trailing from the blade.

Mountain Hammer lets you destroy traps, doors, walls, whatever. Cloak of Deception lets you dart between two points of cover while remaining unseen. Sudden Leap lets you move in, hit, and back out again (use the jump for "moving in"). Shadow Blade Tech lets you virtually guarantee a hit by rolling twice and taking the higher. Charging Minotaur in addition to the obvious, is movement that does not provoke AoOs (though your tumble should be maxed anyway). Distracting Ember gives you or the rogue an instant flanking buddy. Counter Charge and Fire Riposte make anyone that tries to come after you pay dearly. Of course, you can't have all of them readied at once. But w/ Adaptive Style, you can refit to suit your needs in a matter of seconds.

Hunter's Sense for scent I figured would be helpful, if you think not, Step of the Wind or Island of Blades would also be very useful.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ah. I was editing my previous post at the same time that you were writing this. Yes, I figured out quite a bit by now. I selected Warblade. For first level I have:

• Iron Heart "Punishing Stance"
• Iron Heart "Steel Wind"
• Stone Dragon "Charging Minotaur"
• Stone Dragon "Stone Bones"

I have not built the 2nd through 4th levels yet, although after writing this I'll probably get the 2nd level done before bed. I'll do levels 3 & 4 tomorrow, I think.

I would love tips on what extra stances/maneuvers to take, as well as which to swap out at 4th level.

Ah, and I just did a sample swordsage build.

Just remember you can get rid of one of your 1st level maneuvers at level 4 for a 2nd level one. I would drop Stone Bones, it's really not that good.

Seems you like Stone Dragon and Iron Heart. Would you be willing to spend your level 4 stance on Leading the Charge or Bolstering Voice (both are White Raven)? That's all you need in order to qualify for WR Tactics at level 5.

If you don't want that, you're well set up for IH Surge instead, then.

My favorite low level IH maneuver is Wall of Blades. Parrying a ray spell is awesome. And Mountain Hammer is phenomenal. Good damage, and it lets you destroy scenery. Just a few months ago, I shocked a DM by turning an adamantine door into "bonus adamantine ingot loot."

I'll make it simple for you, since you're starting at level 4.

You will know exactly 3 maneuvers of 1st level and 2 maneuvers of 2nd level. No more and no less. You will know exactly 2 stances of 1st level only.

Taking out Stone Bones (unless you really want it...), your current wish list fills up the table like so:

Maneuvers (IL 4; 5 known, 4 readied):
1 Steel Wind (IH, S)
1 Charging Minotaur (SD, S)
1
2
2

Stances:
1 Punishing Stance (IH; -2 AC for +1d6 melee damage)
1