D&D 5E I'm really hating Constitution right now

[Xeviat]

You're equating stats with character personality, which I don't see.

Anyway, I don't get into why and how people build their characters too much. If I'm playing I prefer a certain amount of synergy, but beyond that I don't care if their con is 8 or 18 as long as they do a decent job filling their niche and have fun playing their character.

Personality, mannerisms, backgrounds, choices made during RP are what define a character to me, not the numbers they have on their character sheet.

To each his own.

If part of your character is "I'm super charming" and you don't have training in Persuasion and a decent Charisma ... it's kind of hard to make the game behave the way you want it to in response to your character, no?

 

[Oofta]

If part of your character is "I'm super charming" and you don't have training in Persuasion and a decent Charisma ... it's kind of hard to make the game behave the way you want it to in response to your character, no?

No, it just means that the character thinks they're incredibly charming. Which could actually be a lot of fun.

Hmm ...

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Hi ENWorld. In my last three games, encompassing 15 characters so far, 13/15 have started with a 14 Con (one started with a 16 and another started with a 12). 4 of those characters were brand new players to D&D (they've played wow and diablo and stuff where you don't choose ability scores the same).

I'm really hating how this limits character choices. In standard array, your 14 automatically goes in Con, unless you're a Dwarf. Hit Points are simply too important to all characters.

So, how could I fix this?

My first thought is to remove the +Con to HP per HD. Maybe I'll restructure things and add Con Score to HP at first level (especially if I go with WP/VP). Class HP per level could be raised to the full HD number (thus +2 HP for the d6s, 3 for the d8s, 4 for the d10s, and 5 for the d12). That might be a lot, but Con has been the second stat I've seen be raised to 20 after the attack stat.

Con should still apply to HD healing some how. Con should apply to Death Saves. An Endurance skill can be added to do some cool stuff. And Con applies to some environmental stuff like breathing; it could also apply to starvation and thirst too if those don't already call for Con saves. But would that be enough to make sure Con was balanced with the other stats?

I'm not saying Con isn't balanced with the other stats. It's the only stat that is balanced compared to Dex and your attack/spellcasting stat. But, it is never your weak stat, even if a Con of 8 could be balanced against a Dex of 8. Its such a nonchoice in my games that I feel the need to remove the choice.

What are your thoughts?


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I don't really see the problem. So what if they all pick the same score.

On the other hand, my campaign uses Constitution for a number of things (fatigue being a big one, but Strength also plays into that). Plus we've always rolled abilities, but I suspect you'll find there are some pretty common ways that people use point buy, since as soon as you're making a decision of what to put where, you're trying to make sure you're not going to make a "mistake."

 

[Xeviat]

No, it just means that the character thinks they're incredibly charming. Which could actually be a lot of fun.

Hmm ...

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That's funny. And far different from "my character is charming".

 

[Oofta]

That's funny. And far different from "my character is charming".

Well, if you literally want your character to be charming, then yes they probably need a decent charisma. Or be a rogue with an average charisma who specializes in persuasion.

Same way that a high con fits someone's vision of "I'm more physically resilient than many of my peers in my profession".

But it's still beside the point. If everyone in the group has characters that take great pride in being more virile than their peers, it is a bit odd. So?

But if they don't play up that aspect of their personality the most they've done is bought slightly more HP for their character. It only has an impact from a metagame point of view.

What a person is does not define who a character is. I could see a bard playing someone who gets tongue-tied around women and stutters and bumbles only to have the target of his affection respond by saying "Awww, isn't that cute!"

Same way I could see Austinius Powermus (no copyright infringement here, baby) being a total dork who gets constantly rejected by the same women.

These are new players, probably used to video games and lessons learned that more HP is good. They may not know how important other abilities are to your game so take this as an opportunity to educate them over time. Maybe next time they write up characters you'll see more variety. Or maybe you'll learn to ignore it and focus on who the characters are, not what they are.

 

[CTurbo]

Honestly, I do not see a problem here. So what if Con is important to everybody? I do not see how that is a bad thing or how it could make things boring.

I would rather blame the extremely weak standard array or how weak level 1 characters are supposed to be. I have gotten used to starting off weak and gradually getting stronger per level.

I like my characters tougher than normal for sure, and I don't think I will ever play less than 14 Con character unless I purposefully wanted to play a gimpy character.

 

[Iry]

So what if Con is important to everybody? I do not see how that is a bad thing or how it could make things boring.

It gets into the old Feat Tax debates. If something is good enough that a considerable majority are taking around 14, it should probably be changed somehow so it has parity with other options.

Of course, its hard to get good data on things like this. Everyone's sample size is too small. =P

 

[Saeviomagy]

I guess the real question is thus:

How often has the extra 1-2 hitpoints per level made a difference? How often did a hit leave you with only those hitpoints?

After all, yo-yo healing has often been complained about on these boards. If you're constantly dropping to zero and being healed by a small amount, then those 40 extra hitpoints are only buying you maybe 2 attacks more before you're dropped.

I mean there's obviously a bit more to it than that... but I'm just not seeing where it becomes a must-have.

 

[Morrey_Baldurstrife]

You shouldn't be changing class hit dice or constitution to save players who clearly deserve to be defeated. What squishy characters should do is stay close to the tank. Let the rogues go first and disarm traps. Not every challenge is meant to be a brawl, there is persuasion, disguise kits and cloaking magic for a reason.

 

[Dualazi]

Could that be helped with more robust subclasses? Maybe the Battle Master could be adjusted to favor mental ability scores? Maybe the Purple Dragon Knight can get more stuff with Cha. Maybe we can get a Tactician that uses Int, or something.

Absolutely, the problem is that this should have been a default concern of Wizards when they were making the game, and fixing that now is tantamount to re-writing a huge number of class options. This is an issue with stats from a system-wide viewpoint, while the current topic is focused on the ubiquity of CON, we've had no shortage of discussions relating to dex being too good as well, and it's rooted in the same issue; too many classes have little reason to care about more than 2 stats.

Simply spitballing some ideas, I think one of the possible fixes would be to remove stats from hit calculations and simply double prof. bonus. This would lead to slightly lower accuracy in the beginning and slightly more at the end, but would be close enough. This would make it so that only classes that relied heavily on stats for damage, like high level fighters and barbarians, would feel the need to rush their main stat so much. A paladin, whose damage comes heavily from smites, might not mind having a STR of 14 if he knows it won't ruin his accuracy. You'd have to change the requirements for spell-casting though as this would make low int wizards have very few downsides.

Keeping with the above, you could use your preferred method of removing con from HP and then there would be a lot less combined pressure to pursue the usual 'builds'.