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D&D 5E I'm really hating Constitution right now

I'd say it be more like stocking your bench with 20 pitchers and no good hitters or fielders.
That would imply that anyone is falling short in other areas. You still have your hitters and fielders, even though everyone is also good at throwing. It's just that everyone is good at their own specialty, plus the common speciality.

Because of poor class design, most characters can get away with maxing out their prime stat and Constitution, and there's virtually no penalty associated with this sort of optimization. Those two stats just get used way more than any other stats - you use your prime stat when you do something on your turn, and you use Con whenever you take damage on an enemy turn, and every other stat is used once in a blue moon.

You're not missing out on lore-type skills, though, because the Wizard can still handle that in addition to having good Con. You're not missing out on social-type skills, because the Warlock can still handle that in addition to having good Con.
 

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Hillsy7

First Post
That would imply that anyone is falling short in other areas. You still have your hitters and fielders, even though everyone is also good at throwing. It's just that everyone is good at their own specialty, plus the common speciality.

Because of poor class design, most characters can get away with maxing out their prime stat and Constitution, and there's virtually no penalty associated with this sort of optimization. Those two stats just get used way more than any other stats - you use your prime stat when you do something on your turn, and you use Con whenever you take damage on an enemy turn, and every other stat is used once in a blue moon.

You're not missing out on lore-type skills, though, because the Wizard can still handle that in addition to having good Con. You're not missing out on social-type skills, because the Warlock can still handle that in addition to having good Con.

I kinda disagree with "poor class design"......You're viewing it from 1 perspective, and arguing it remains true for all perspectives.

Firstly, if you're character is too MAD your array is basically chosen for you (e.g. a Monk's DEX doesn't add to melee damage instead of STR, only attack rolls), which leads to homogeneous stat arrays if you're effective in combat. That's poor class design. 5e says you should prioritse a couple of stats for your class, and pick between others to round out your character. That's good design, as it allows a core identity plus character variation.

Secondly, there is a penalty for maxing Constitution - you're not spending points elsewhere meaning, mechanically speaking, your character is dull. That's a penalty in a Role Playing Game.

Thirdly, if your building characters based on the builds of other people in the party, you're optimizing. If you are a standard array Elf Druid, say, with 10 CHA and 8 INT, You ARE missing out on Lore and Social skills, because YOU don't get to do them well. Thematically, you can't read very well and people find you bland. That's potentially huge for the Roleplaying side of things. OK, your Party doesn't suffer for you having naff INT and CHA, but YOU do.


Now, the point is, if none of the above bothers you, or doesn't matter in the game the GM is playing, that's fine. Great. D&D is flexible and can be played many ways. But it does also mean you're optimizing as a group, dumping stats "Covered" by the party, and narrowing your character down to a tuned combat machine. Therefore, the players will likely be completely OK with the lack of other options available, which means the design theory matches their expectations of the game.

There's a reason why people complain that the Fighter doesn't have enough class options that are non-combat, because they WANT to get involved in social and not just leave it to the Wizard and Warlock to read and talk to people.
 

Firstly, if you're character is too MAD your array is basically chosen for you (e.g. a Monk's DEX doesn't add to melee damage instead of STR, only attack rolls), which leads to homogeneous stat arrays if you're effective in combat. That's poor class design. 5e says you should prioritse a couple of stats for your class, and pick between others to round out your character. That's good design, as it allows a core identity plus character variation.
Your stats are basically chosen for you if you need exactly two good stats and can safely dump everything else, which leads to the current observations of homogenous stat arrays. That's the problem. Rogues need Dex and Con, wizards need Int and Con, warlocks need Charisma and Con, etc. A couple of classes, such as paladins and monks, do actually face a meaningful choice between Constitution and another useful stat. It would be nice if more classes worked that way.

As some sort of platonic ideal, if every class benefited equally from every stat, then you actually could build however you wanted without being penalized. If you wanted a fighter that was good at lore or social skills, you wouldn't have to shoot yourself in the foot in order to do so. I'm not sure what sort of benefit could make Intelligence or Charisma as valuable to a fighter as Strength or Dexterity, though.
Secondly, there is a penalty for maxing Constitution - you're not spending points elsewhere meaning, mechanically speaking, your character is dull. That's a penalty in a Role Playing Game.
That's not a fun choice to offer the player. As a designer, you shouldn't ask the player to choose between being efficient but boring or weak but fun. All characters should be fun.
There's a reason why people complain that the Fighter doesn't have enough class options that are non-combat, because they WANT to get involved in social and not just leave it to the Wizard and Warlock to read and talk to people.
And that's a great reason to remove Constitution from the game. If fighters didn't need Strength (or Dex) and Con in order to do their job, then they'd be able to quickly cap out their prime stat and then move on to Int or Charisma or something. It definitely helps if you're not using feats, of course.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
I'm going to echo what others have said. If you want diversity, use rolled stats.

Optimizers are always going to build their characters optimally. If you take away Constitution, a new stat will arise to take its place (probably Dexterity, for initiative and bonuses to AC when out of armor). The only other option would be to somehow encourage your players towards a more role play oriented style of play, where they don't always take the optimal choice, but that is more easily said than done.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
I run Con 8 characters all the time.

The average Con of all parties I've been in is about 12, and that's because most parties I'm in are heavily melee.
 

Hillsy7

First Post
Your stats are basically chosen for you if you need exactly two good stats and can safely dump everything else, which leads to the current observations of homogenous stat arrays. That's the problem. Rogues need Dex and Con, wizards need Int and Con, warlocks need Charisma and Con, etc. A couple of classes, such as paladins and monks, do actually face a meaningful choice between Constitution and another useful stat. It would be nice if more classes worked that way.

As some sort of platonic ideal, if every class benefited equally from every stat, then you actually could build however you wanted without being penalized. If you wanted a fighter that was good at lore or social skills, you wouldn't have to shoot yourself in the foot in order to do so. I'm not sure what sort of benefit could make Intelligence or Charisma as valuable to a fighter as Strength or Dexterity, though.
That's not a fun choice to offer the player. As a designer, you shouldn't ask the player to choose between being efficient but boring or weak but fun. All characters should be fun.
And that's a great reason to remove Constitution from the game. If fighters didn't need Strength (or Dex) and Con in order to do their job, then they'd be able to quickly cap out their prime stat and then move on to Int or Charisma or something. It definitely helps if you're not using feats, of course.

There's a number of issues I see here:
1) All but a few classes NEED a decent con mod. As I'm mentioned before 5/7 of the Critical Role Team have CON as their 2nd Lowest stat and their game is doing alright....By your definition, Toughness should always be taken as it's equivalent to 4 points of CON (+2 Mod). Yes, if you are playing a certain type of game optimally you are going to prioritise CON over other things, and in those sort of game s those 'other things' aren't going to come up as much.

2) Yes, we all have our own biases about how the game should be played, but they are personal to us. You say you can "safely dump everything else", or a "Meaningful choice" over other stats. Then you say a Fighter would have to shoot himself in the foot to pump Intelligence. Therefore, I can infer that you think Dumping social stats is "Safe" and not have CON as your Second stat is "Penalising"....Fine, that's your opinion, but it does show your bias. I would say a Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue with 12, 10, 8 in Mental stats *is* being penalised in every aspect of the game that isn't being punched in the face. It's only a safe choice is your only measure of the game is dying through HP degradation. Again, in certain types of games that's totally fine (and with certain GMs, a very valid concern). In other games, you are damaged because of it.

(I've now got this hilarious situation where your party Wizard has been kidnapped, but no other character has a high enough Intelligence to read the ransom note).

3) This isn't about being efficient but boring or weak but fun. That's a false dichotomy, because the GM can tailor encounters and the game as they want, and players themselves get joy out of different things. Because in D&D the difference between your 'Efficient' and 'Weak' (also you use a scientific term and an emotional term in the comparison) isn't huge. 2 HP per level (the difference between 10 and 15 CON) isn't that dramatic compared to a huge number of other factors (Class, positioning, not being surprised, Spell choice, Gear, enemy type, etc etc). I suspect What you mean is "optimal but boring" and "non-optimal but fun" where "optimal" means best at combat, and not best at other areas of the game.

4) Removing Con from the game does exactly the same as giving everyone 14 CON - therefore it solves absolutely nothing except piss off Dwarves, Goliaths and Half-orcs. In fact, just remove mechancial stats (Attack, spellcasting, Con) completely from the game and Max them dependent on class, and let people spend their Stat points purely on skills and ability checks? In fact, loads of systems already do exactly that, so why play D&D at all?



Look, I'll say it again, and again. If you believe maxing CON is integral to your enjoyment of the game, then that's fine. Firstly, there's plenty of Class/Race/Character Concepts that support this, and plenty of GM styles that accommodate. Great! You know what you want. However, claiming something is badly designed because it doesn't match your preference isn't fair. Especially, when I think it's brilliant that I can make a Fighter with 10 CON and still have great fun in all aspects of the game. The fact we can hold these contrary views shows exactly how well 5e is designed.
 
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Oofta

Legend
I'm going to echo what others have said. If you want diversity, use rolled stats.

Optimizers are always going to build their characters optimally. If you take away Constitution, a new stat will arise to take its place (probably Dexterity, for initiative and bonuses to AC when out of armor). The only other option would be to somehow encourage your players towards a more role play oriented style of play, where they don't always take the optimal choice, but that is more easily said than done.

If you allow people to place the numbers where you want, given normal distribution people will still probably have ... wait for it ... cons between 12 and 16.

Unless of course you make them roll and use the dice in sequence. But why even bother with that? The DM should just decide what the stats will be and let the people know what they're going to play. Because after all, there is only one true way to play D&D and allowing people to play the character they want is unforgivable. :rant:

I was just looking back at characters I've played for living campaigns and I think Xeviat would hate my characters. I mean, I've had relatively intelligent fighters and charismatic wizards and all that, but in every case they had at least a 12 con. The horror!
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
If you allow people to place the numbers where you want, given normal distribution people will still probably have ... wait for it ... cons between 12 and 16.

Based on my experience I would say 10 to 16, but given that the range with array / point buy is only 8 to 15 (pre-racial-modifiers) I'd say that's a pretty reasonable range either way.

Unless of course you make them roll and use the dice in sequence. But why even bother with that? The DM should just decide what the stats will be and let the people know what they're going to play. Because after all, there is only one true way to play D&D and allowing people to play the character they want is unforgivable. :rant:

I never said that optimization as a play style is wrong. My players optimize when they want to, and make non-optimal RP-based choices when they want to. I have no issue with either, but it seems to me as though Xeviat may want to shift away from optimization (based on the idea that taking a 14 Con is an optimization-driven choice). Heck, IMO, it's not even really a dichotomy as I've implied above (you can make choices that are both optimal and RP-driven, such as the classic strong-but-dumb barbarian).

My point was that so long as the players remain optimization-oriented, there will continue to be an optimal secondary or tertiary stat that they will naturally gravitate to (unless you make all stats equally useless, or some such). IMO, trading "I have a problem with every character having a 14 Con" for "I have a problem with every character having a 14 Dex" doesn't buy you much.
 

Oofta

Legend
Based on my experience I would say 10 to 16, but given that the range with array / point buy is only 8 to 15 (pre-racial-modifiers) I'd say that's a pretty reasonable range either way.



I never said that optimization as a play style is wrong. My players optimize when they want to, and make non-optimal RP-based choices when they want to. I have no issue with either, but it seems to me as though Xeviat may want to shift away from optimization (based on the idea that taking a 14 Con is an optimization-driven choice). Heck, IMO, it's not even really a dichotomy as I've implied above (you can make choices that are both optimal and RP-driven, such as the classic strong-but-dumb barbarian).

My point was that so long as the players remain optimization-oriented, there will continue to be an optimal secondary or tertiary stat that they will naturally gravitate to (unless you make all stats equally useless, or some such). IMO, trading "I have a problem with every character having a 14 Con" for "I have a problem with every character having a 14 Dex" doesn't buy you much.

Doesn't some of that come back to what motivation are you giving players to not optimize for combat? If you have a combat heavy game, people will naturally optimize for that. Have a game with a lot of skill checks stressing a variety of abilities? You may get more balanced characters.

Or to shift the focus ever so slightly to the strength/dexterity debate from a usefulness perspective, if you see that as an issue then I would suggest that you balance out the perceived advantage of dexterity by making strength a little better. Let people buy bows that let you add your strength instead of dex to the attack. Track encumbrance and then have treasure hordes with lots of silver and copper. Make them climb mountains.

What I try to not do is overly penalize people for building the character they had envisioned. In addition I'd rather add to the rules (bows that allow for strength) than to take away things. Let people have their toys, their high con scores if they want a few more HP.
 

Horwath

Legend
I'm going to echo what others have said. If you want diversity, use rolled stats.

Optimizers are always going to build their characters optimally. If you take away Constitution, a new stat will arise to take its place (probably Dexterity, for initiative and bonuses to AC when out of armor). The only other option would be to somehow encourage your players towards a more role play oriented style of play, where they don't always take the optimal choice, but that is more easily said than done.

that is true.

Optimizing depends on dumping a stat or two for the cost of bumping primary/secondary stats.

If D&D had less stats 4 instead of 6;

My thread last year about that topic:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ad-of-6-And-returning-to-3-saves-instead-of-6

With less stats(they get more powerfull) it is more costly to dump a stat 4 pts to bump up primary for 2 pts(point buy FTW).

If a stat gets into lot of mechanics having -1 to lot of rolls will be less desired.
 

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