I'm sick of symmetries

[Aus_Snow]

Twowolves, why is the Assassin prestige class the opposite of the Paladin base class? Just wondering.

Re: Paladin variants - the worst ones I've seen are the ones in Unearthed Arcana. Wow, way to make all the DDM alignments absolutely symmetrical in every possible way.

Voadam, how is having DR X/good vs. DR x/evil NOT symmetry? Er, unless you mean something else. . . Also, there are quite a few beings defined by Lawful/Chaotic 'qualities', and rest assured that if there was ever to be the same attention paid to those two alignment poles as there is to Good and Evil, there would be the same flavourless symmetry present in abundance.

Thia Halmades, I believe Warrior of Darkness was the PrC title you were looking for, not Cancer Mage. There, we have symmetry again. I'm not sure what you mean about that "general consensus" regarding "Heaven & Hell". . . (?)

Li Shenron, I completely agree with your rant. I think symmetry across dualistic divides is sometimes necessary, or nearly so, and at other times acceptable. A lot of the time though, it serves no purpose other than convenience and time-saving in design.

 

[Twowolves]

Twowolves, why is the Assassin prestige class the opposite of the Paladin base class? Just wondering.

I wasn't necessarily refering to the current rules edition. That comparison was a holdever from my 1st ed days, when everyone was screaming for an "anti-paladin". People kept making these symmetrical versions, with magic-user spells instead of clerical spells, chaotic evil instead of lawful good, -2 to enemies saves instead of +2 to his own etc etc etc. I would counter that idea with the idea that the assassin was the real anti-paladin. That and the idea that the good guys had champions (like PCs), the bad guys had hordes (like orcs).

 

[Aikuchi]

What would qualify a class or PrC as a true opposite for another anyways?

Would a PrC melee be a natural 'opposite' for 'PrC caster classes or ranged PrCs?
By Alignments, it seems easier; Assasin = evil, Paladin = Good.
Sometimes there are by Law ? Chaos
Symmetry for ELements like the 4 Ele. Savants or Elemental Variant with any Core or PrC.

I dont really see oppoites unless its in relation to the alignment in my games. Symmetry likely with elements. Even those using the 5 natural chinese elements of wood, water, metal, fire and earth.

So what do we have thats rather assymetrical?
The Blood war and the structure of Lawful and Chaotic Evil?
I like the fact that one uses mass number with fewer in control versus the more stifened heirarchal strucutre of command with ranks everywhere. I consider that assymetrical.

I don't see a solution or symmetricla (opposing even) component to the "Tant' of OA.
And I think thats wonderful, for games to explore themselves and discover.

My 2 ringgit.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I wasn't necessarily refering to the current rules edition. That comparison was a holdever from my 1st ed days, when everyone was screaming for an "anti-paladin". People kept making these symmetrical versions, with magic-user spells instead of clerical spells, chaotic evil instead of lawful good, -2 to enemies saves instead of +2 to his own etc etc etc. I would counter that idea with the idea that the assassin was the real anti-paladin. That and the idea that the good guys had champions (like PCs), the bad guys had hordes (like orcs).

A-ha. Yeah, I can see that scenario. I agree that the old assassin probably made a pretty decent 'anti-paladin' (gods, how I hate that term though ) - er, anti-old-paladin or whatever.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Write me down as another signature on the list.

Particularly the "Smite opposing alligance and protection from opposing alliegance" camp of holy/unholy/chaotic/lawful warriors. Somehow, it just feels like each should be different (from a class sort of view). Othewise the holy order of X vs the unholy order of Y ends up being disturbingly similar.

I could see giving evil some sort of slow rotting drain on opponents, or making it better at killing in an area, good maintaining the resistance and hit that one guy, while chaos could break down things that exsist and change situaitons while law imposes it's will on things.

Also, in general principal, I'd have evil's powers work just as well on evil foes as good.

 

[Imret]

Likewise, consider mine another signature on the list. Without arguing the linguistics used, I'd say that while I appreciate the BoED nearly as much as the BoVD, I'm most definately against mirror-image anti-paladins and good poisons and and...argh!

Then again, I don't really like the specificity of the paladin. I'm more inclined to a tear-down and rebuild as a general crusader.
Moo. Mooo. Amen. *THWACK!* !!! *thud*
/hijack

 

[glass]

I've been having similar thoughts about the arcane/divine thing. How many 'divine versions' of the sorcerer have there been? There's even a divine bard in UA!


glass.

 

[rounser]

Paladin is a core class, blackguard is a prc.

I seem to remember Gygax arguing as to why antipaladins shouldn't exist....that the paladin was conceived as a sort of dam of good against the tide of evil, and had special abilities to fulfil that role. In other words, the paladin was a special concession or "hack" from the good deities in response to the fact that in most D&D worlds, evil doesn't lack for champions.

The antipaladin doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. The black knight is a well-known archetype, but not the holy black knight. And what is he crusading against, commoners? Blink dogs? Flumphs? Although a good concept superficially, perhaps it's an example of the symmetry thing pointed out in this thread.

 

[Aikuchi]

Rounser:
(clasp) - I totally agree with the fact that the Paladin was made with such clarity of purpose by the forces of good.

Somehow, I dont really see the unification of evil creating a class of warriors that completely extol the sins of evil against good. (in general) ..

i hope i'm making sense.

 

[buzz]

Somehow, I dont really see the unification of evil creating a class of warriors that completely extol the sins of evil against good. (in general) .

Ringwraiths, maybe?

I dunno. I thik the concept of an evil champion is pretty cool. Makes for a good uber-villain, too. Preacher from season 7 Buffy, anyone?

FWIW, put me down as someone with no symmetry issues. Issues with specific implementations, maybe, but not the concept. It's been integral to D&D since the little brown books. (Hint: alignment.)