I'm sick of symmetries

[Twowolves]

Well, part of the reason I'm asking is I'm developing a 4 Element oriented campaign world, and the clerics are by their nature elemental savants. All the fire spells (arcane or divine) are put on the fire cleric's spell list, all of the cold spells are put on the water list, etc. When I get to Earth however, the acid energy spells just don't sit right next to the Move Earth and Stone Shape type of spells. Earth is rigid and solid. Acid is fluid and caustic, dissolving the very metal that is the strength of the Earth elemental plane. I just don't see the relation.

I did this very thing right before 3rd ed came out, only instead of clerics, I had the 4 elements be the 4 "schools" of magic. I then proceeded to expand my definition for what constituted each element, and thereby added many many more spells. For example, Fire was not just flame and destruction, but also passion and emotion, Air had invisibility and illusion (mirages), Water is everchanging in form, so it had a lot of transmuting spells in it, etc etc.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Others have already pointed out many of the game symmetries that bother me, from an RP point of view. Mainly the "good poison" and "good disease" from the BoED. I do indeed want my [Good] and [Evil] to reflect their philosophical differences with mechanical differences, rather than merely having the same abilities with different descriptors.

However, generally, Umbran hit the nail on the head with how I handle things:

Beyond that - last time I checked, the DM was supposed to comb through and pick and choose what they want in their game. From that standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to present symmetric possibilities in products, so that the DM can choose either or both. Everything outside the core is optional, and ain't nobody stopping you from taking one side and not the other.

I use what I feel is appropriate. Outside of that, I don't mind the other things being presented as options for other DMs to enjoy.

 

[Aus_Snow]

The symmetry thing is annoying: it's dull, it's rote, and it gets taken to ridiculous extremes (deathless, anyone? 'good' poisons?

Yep, and yep.

'good' ASSASSINS? sheesh!).

On the other hand, I've got no more problem with a 'Good' assassin than I do a 'Good' knight. But if you're meaning what I think you're meaning, as in the 'Good Assassin' PrC, which is thrown in only because there apparently has to be a 'Good' equivalent to just about every other freaking 'Evil' thing, then yep. . . that's incredibly annoying, and shows that there was quite possibly a distinct lack of measurable thought processes involved.

Bleh.

 

[The Shaman]

But if you're meaning what I think you're meaning, as in the 'Good Assassin' PrC, which is thrown in only because there apparently has to be a 'Good' equivalent to just about every other freaking 'Evil' thing, then yep. . . that's incredibly annoying, and shows that there was quite possibly a distinct lack of measurable thought processes involved.

Yep, and yep.

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

Argument for 'good' assassins - Chiun or more likely Remo Williams of the Glorious House of Sinanju. "Assassination is the highest form of public service."

Acid linked to earth - My guess: alchemy since it was once both science and religion. There was a belief that base elements could be purified / evolve to more valuable ones like the classic lead to gold trick. The religion part suggested a human could likewise evolve into something closer to God / divinity, even in Chinese alchemy (gunpowder was supposed to be a potion to extend life I think til it blew up the alchemist's hut).

As an aside, "pass the acid test" referred to how 'gold' could be verified as such (gold does not react with acid). Likewise the comparison to testing one's mettle (similar origin - metal -> mettle or vice versa). Aqua regia (royal water) on the other hand can dissolve gold but that's because its hydrochloric dissolved in nitric acid (or vice versa) instead possessing all those pesky dihydrogen monoxide molecules (yes, I'm a chemist - sorta).

Or I'm just overthinking and its just a pairing of leftovers.

 

[DamionW]

Or I'm just overthinking and its just a pairing of leftovers.

Honestly this seems the most likely possibility to me. This seems one of the symmetries imposed by the designers meta-game rather than their being a decent connection. The references you mention of acids dissolving metals proves my point. Metals are one of the strongest examples of a gift from the Earth. And what does acid do? It destroys it. How is that rational that acid is representative of Earth when it destroys it?

 

[Aikuchi]

Hmm,

Then how can cold properly represent water. Water is fluid and mobile and everchanging while cold ... well doesnt that create a kind of static product.

 

[DamionW]

Hmm,

Then how can cold properly represent water. Water is fluid and mobile and everchanging while cold ... well doesnt that create a kind of static product.

As mentioned on my first post, Water -> Ice makes sense on the following levels:

1) Water the element opposes Fire the element. Fire/Heat the energy can easily be seen as opposing Ice/Cold. When you add Fire energy, the amount of "coldness" is reduced. When you add Cold energy (assuming Cold is a magical force in itself), the amount of "heat" is reduced.
2) The most prevalent manifestation of cold damage involves the material ice. The spells Ice Storm and Sleet Storm, hallmarks of the Cold energy subtype spells involve bludgeoning enemies with ice to inflict the cold damage. Ice is composed of the element Water from the four elements, not air and not earth.

So in effect, cold energy opposes fire energy equally to water element and cold energy coalesces the element of water into a form that can cause damage.

The link between Electricity and Air is weaker, I admit, but it is still stronger than Acid to Earth. The Electricity rationales can be boiled down to such:

1) Lightning originates from the sky and travels through the air. When you energize the Element of air, electricity is the most common result in the form of lightning.
2) Electricty on some level opposes Earth. This is evidenced in Shocking Grasp being easier to target metal armor (composed of the earth element) and the fact that lightning travels from the sky down to damage the ground. Admittedly weaker than the Cold to Fire opposition, but still sensible on some level.

Now, what I don't get is how acid either a) coaleces, originates from or energizes the earth element or b) opposes the air element in any way. This to me seems a case of acid and sonic being the leftover energy types and giving acid to earth and leaving sonic outside of the spectrum for meta-game consistency. This is the kind of forced symmetry I feel many object to. I do welcome anyone to disprove my reasoning, however.

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

Hrm. Well fire with fire is a given.

Air and electricity (visions of Louie the Lightning Bug running in my head) seem a better fit than with any other element. True that electricity comes with water (rain) but not always like ball lightning and St Elmo's Fire (kinda like faerie fire) so the connection between air and electricity (Oh ya gotta play safe around electricity!) is probably thru the mutual connection to weather.

Water and cold. Well on a hot day, the best place to be is in a pool of water (good heat sink) so there's part of the cold reasoning. However water can also be stagnant like ice (thus cold) as large bodies of water tend to freeze over during the colder months, especially if there isn't much current to add more energy to the system. There's also the previously mentioned negating effects against fire / heat.

Now the tricky one. Acid corrodes or otherwise breaks down things eventually. Earth does that as well tho technically it would be thru rust, rot / decay or just roots breaking up rocks. Given time, nature aka earth will reclaim anything, returning it back to earth. But by this reasoning, is acid equated with entropy?

Remember it was once believed that life was composed of the 4 elements (body - earth, body heat - fire, fluids - water, breathing - air) along with some 5th Element that granted the BIG Badaboom, Milla Jov, er, life (aether / quintessence / soul) so thinking back to simpler times might help.

But with some pondering, electricity could be also associated with fire (both can burn and shed light), cold could be with earth (death), etc. Great. I just muddied the water again.

 

[Aikuchi]

Elementally, I think any good amount of thought can reason out how each particular energy (or basically 2), can fall under each elemental category.
Its like its shares the domains for 2 energies.
Air = Lightning and Fire (fire cant exist without air sustenance and requires it?)
Water= Acid and Cold
Earth = Acid and ??

GIven enough thought and time, I believe any system can be developed in the context of what is used.

But is it symmetry or dualism (fire/ice) (air vs earth)?
Addition of a 5th element.
What the symmetry for sonic energy ?

So many perception ...

How wonderful imagination can be.