Immediate-action Spell - Revised and Now Named "Kelleris's Antecedent Assailment"

[Kelleris]

Chorn - Of course I didn't think anyone would actually annihilate space-time due to this spell, but I like the image. (Although I'd probably win the award for most damage to a campaign from a single spell if that happened, and that would be fun! ) And it's a valid rules-concern too.

I kinda had magic missile's "no objects" thing in mind here, so it's creatures only as I'd originally intended. I'm not sure if the complexity trade-off for the entertainment value of affecting objects is worth it. I need to think that over.

Your crazy tactical-temporal shenanigans would also work.

I say all those options are great and should be valid uses of the spell. However, I suggest adding wording to the spell so that even if the caster doesn't cast it the spell slot is still lost. Otherwise you could mess with the space-time continuum for free all day.

That's a good idea. I would've thought the high chance of stunning would be enough of a kick to the face to cover it, but this makes sense too.

Also, what prevents a wounded creature killed by this spell, which is then not cast the following round, from getting healed to more HP than it started with?

In the "Kelleris" version, absolutely nothing. Sometimes weird things happen when you make the universe self-correct. They can't go above max HP, of course, but that's true with all healing. They could also take a small amount of damage from a spell that was never actually cast, of course. The "Chorn" version, of course, avoids this odd effect, which I like for flavor.

 

[RedShirtNo5]

Cool Spell

I also really like this spell. Here are a couple notes.

1. I agree that the spell slot should be lost even if the caster doesn't cast it. Could be treated as an effect of temporal backlash.

1a. Are immediate actions limited to 1/round? Is there some way to get multiple immediate actions so as to invoke mulitiple blasts in a single round before having to "cast" the spell?

2. In a formal version of the spell I would specify the conditions in which the immediate effect can be used, i.e., that the caster has the spell prepared (if the caster prepares spells) or knows the spell and had a slot of equal or higher level available (if the caster casts spells spontaneously).

2a. This brings up another issue - can the spell be cast from an item? What if a fellow party member has an item with the spell?

3. Temporal backlash generates a stun effect. Remember that some creature types, e.g., undead, are immune to stun. So liches can cast the spell without ill effect. Similarly, a few effects/PrCs make creatures immune to stun. Not sure if you really intended backlash as an effect that creatures could be immune to due to not having a metabolism.

4. Is temporal backlash a magical effect. Will the target be healed if it moves into an anti-magic zone? Will the caster suffer the stun effect if it moves into an anti-magic zone?

5. In a formal version I would rephrase as follows: "If for some reason you do not successfully cast ..." to make sure counter-spelling and disruption is covered.

6. Is it a paradox if the caster moves between generating the effect and casting the spell? Since technically the ray should have emerged last round from the position where the caster is located this round. Can be handwaved, but would be another effective limitation on the spell.

Again, great spell.

-RedShirt

 

[Soel]

All good points, RedShirt!

Also, with this spell, a caster can effectively cast 3 spells in one round. (KAA, Ouickened spell, and regular spell.) Or has it been written that Immediate actions cannot be use in conjunction with Quickened spells/powers in the same round?

I do like this spell, I must say...

 

[Chorn]

1. I agree that the spell slot should be lost even if the caster doesn't cast it.

2. In a formal version of the spell I would specify the conditions in which the immediate effect can be used, i.e., that the caster has the spell prepared . . .

Should be obvious no? Nonstandard casting time aside, it's still a regular spell and subject to all the same limitations. Can't cast something if you don't have it prepared or have a slot free to cast it now can you?

1a. Are immediate actions limited to 1/round?

They count as your swift action for the turn, and you can only perform one swift action per turn. So no cheating out extra blasts that you cannot hope to finish, err start, or something.

2a. This brings up another issue - can the spell be cast from an item? What if a fellow party member has an item with the spell?

I think I see where you're going with the first part. Normally putting something like feather fall on a wand defeats the purpose of the spell since it takes at least a standard action to use the wand. Kelleris's original draft had a "normal" casting time of one immediate action, but it has since been revised to one standard action. This should circumvent any problems with casting times on items in my opinion. You use your item as a standard action and the effect occurs, but the effect already occured due to the nature of the spell.

I'm not quite sure what the problem would be if another party member has an item. Are you asking how to resolve multiple effects? It should be a simple first in, first out the way I see it.

3. Temporal backlash generates a stun effect. Remember that some creature types, e.g., undead, are immune to stun.

Good catch! The description needs some text stating that the stun works on all creatures regardless of immunities or construct/undead Fortitude immunity due to its nature. Should be obvious that no one is immune to the ravages of Time and paradox but it should be explicitly noted.

Then again, there are those who might or should be immune from temporal paradox. People like the Doctor, temporal beasties, chronomancers like myself, and dumb as dirt Time travelers in Hollywood movies.

4. Is temporal backlash a magical effect. Will the target be healed if it moves into an anti-magic zone? Will the caster suffer the stun effect if it moves into an anti-magic zone?

The target shouldn't be healed by moving into an anti-magic field or dead magic zone. The damage is instantaneous, and the paradox correction hasn't happened yet. In my opinion, the correction should probably be suppressed if the target is in the field for the real version, but still occur for the Chorn version. As soon as the target is no longer in the field, the correction will occur, which could possibly lead to some hilarious situations if he was stuck uncorrected for years inside a dead magic zone. My argument for immediate correction on the Chorn version is the safety based flavor of the variant. Don't mess with Time anymore than you need to and let Time autocorrect the rest.

My opinion differs slightly on the backlash effect on the caster. Suppressing the stun feels too much like a cheat even though the caster is arguably weaker staying inside since he loses spell ability.

5. In a formal version I would rephrase as follows: "If for some reason you do not successfully cast ..." to make sure counter-spelling and disruption is covered.

Seconded. Since you could argue that technically it was cast when it was counterspelled, so you were not "unable" to cast it.

6. Is it a paradox if the caster moves between generating the effect and casting the spell?

It probably is a minor one. But as with all spells coded using Chronosoft's new VisualChronomancy Time.8, Kelleris's Antecedent Assailment should include their revolutionary Paradox AutoCorrect feature that will automagically clean up small paradox collisions in the spell without destroying the fabric of space-Time! Don't forget to try Chronosoft's new nuTARDIS time machine wax. Buff out those nicks and scratches on your time machine today!

*Note: Chronosoft is not responsible for any hologram malfunctions that may occur while using this product.

Since technically the ray should have emerged last round from the position where the caster is located this round.

Yeah it should just be handwaved away. Too much trouble having to keep track of where you were last round and also factor in involuntary movement, feats, and other variables.

Also, with this spell, a caster can effectively cast 3 spells in one round. (KAA, Ouickened spell, and regular spell.)

Negative. Quickened spells are also swift actions. It kind of fits the general flavor of the spell to break the limit, but it would be too powerful. An epic level version might be a more appropriate power level for such an effect.

 

[RedShirtNo5]

Should be obvious no? Nonstandard casting time aside, it's still a regular spell and subject to all the same limitations. Can't cast something if you don't have it prepared or have a slot free to cast it now can you?

Actually, given the nature of the spell, I'm not so sure. Suppose the PC doesn't have the spell prepared, but has a pearl of power and still has a standard action left. Can the PC use the immediate action to create the blast, arguing that "Hey, I'll be able to cast the spell next round by activating the pearl this round"? (I'm assuming pearl is standard action, although you should get the idea even if it isn't). Similarly, can the PC create the blast by arguing "I'll be able to take the scroll from my fellow wizard this round and cast it next round"? So does the spell actually have to be prepared/etc., or can the effect be created based on player imagination of a condition that will permit the spell to be cast next round? I can see arguments for doing it either way. In a formal version of the spell I would have it explicitly stated which way it should work.

The target shouldn't be healed by moving into an anti-magic field or dead magic zone.

Maybe I wasn't clear. It seems fairly evident (to me) that the paradox correction should be a non-magical effect. That should be stated explicitly, since the default assumption is generally that all spell effects are magical. So the target should be healed and the caster stunned, regardless of whether they are in an anti-magic zone when the paradox correction effect takes place.

This is such a fun spell to work on.

-RedShirt

 

[Chorn]

This is such a fun spell to work on.

Total agreement. Much props to Kelleris. Much thanks to him for sharing this with us and provoking such interesting discussion.

It took me a moment to comprehend the situation you're describing. Short version: Bill & Ted say it's "Excellent!" So in other words, BOGUS. No fair messing around with predestination and future actions!

The first bit with the PC recharging with a pearl of power can easily work if you change the order by having him recharge THEN blast. But of course that's not what you said and the slight difference can mean something with immediate and ready actions in play.

The relayed scroll would of course fall under Bill & Ted tomfoolery. It definitely should not be possible to cast when you don't have the means to cast it in the first place. Even if you somehow acquire the means to do so before the backlash hits. I was going to try and one up you with an even more absurd and convoluted cast and acquire/recharge before backlash hits, but it fell apart when I couldn't figure out how to move the items around in time. Handwave such stuff away as you would the infamous "Commoner Railgun" oddity.

Maybe I wasn't clear. It seems fairly evident (to me) that the paradox correction should be a non-magical effect.

OK, I understand now. In that case I pretty much agree. It probably is simpler to just resolve everything all at once like that.

 

[Kelleris]

Okay, I added the bit about it being a nonmagical effect in.

I'm inclined to leave it as a stun effect, actually. That even a fair number of creatures are immune to it doesn't bother me, and if you go out of the way to portect yourself from this backlash it should be rewarded. Even if you are immune to stunning, though, you're still only using a 6th-level slot to deal up to 15d6 damage for a maximum of one round, because the effect on the creature is still (more or less) erased. I don't think that's broken at all.

I might be willing to use some other status condition if there was one that worked on undead, constructs, etc., but all of the stun-type conditions rely on having some kind of metabolism, it seems.

For the "talking the DM into believing you can cast the spell next round" issue, what should I do? Add a line stating that you have to have the spell prepared or know it and have an available slot?

Dang, this is getting more and more complicated. Darn my hide for making a time-travel spell!

 

[Kelleris]

Here's another one, inspired by the Bill & Ted reference...

Kelleris's Time-Lost Crawler
Conjuration [Creation]
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0
Effect: One time-traveling construct
Duration: 1 hour/level or until discharged

This spell calls forth a scuttling spider-like construct, which immediately disappears into the time stream, traveling at your behest. This construct finds objects for you surreptitiously, and secrets them where you need them so that you stumble across the item(s) right when you need it.

At any time during the spell's duration you may, as an immediate action, "discover" an item or items worth no more than 100 gold pieces per caster level, ready to hand. You may employ the item immediately. The object or objects vanish 10 minutes after they appear, returning to the when and where they came from.

You may have no more than one time-lost crawler active at any one time, according to your subjective time-frame. For some reason, the objects fetched by Kelleris's time-lost crawler tend to be oddly random - a scroll will have several individuals' handwriting on it, or a pair of socks will be mismatched.

 

[Quip]

The time-lost crawler seems like loads of fun, useful for getting one shot items and the like. Should there be a limit on the size of the items? Or their location? Can they be alive? Can I have a boulder fall on my enemies from nowhere, or have an angry ferret suddenly appear in their pants?

Also, for the antecedent assailment, can it work the other way around? Can I cast it this round to blast a guy in the last round, before you knew he was there? Are there any complications if you kill youself with it, in order to advoid a more permanent demise?

The spells would seem very appropriate as psionic powers, now that I think about it. Not exactly sure if they would be metacreativity or psychokenisis though.

 

[the Jester]

Very cool, very creative.

Yoink.