immediate and Swift actions

[kexmal]

I have recently had a problem with a player (he left the group cause of it) can you do both a swift action and an immediate action in the same round?

Page 7 of Rules compendium: "You can also perform an immediate action OR a swift action... (talking about the number of actions performed in a ROUND). That is an exclusive 'OR" (or so it seems if it was an inclusive "or" then they may have well said swift AND immediate). And you can only take one swift per turn if you use a swift can you also use an immediate in the same ROUND??

Then the description of immediate actions is apparently ambiguous. Some say you can perform both a swift and an immediate in the same round. I dont know. What do you guys think. I know immediate actions take up your swift for the next round but that doesnt mean you can take both a swift and immediate in the same round (meaning immediate actions are more limiting in that if you take one it uses up your swift for the next round, BUT if you use a swift during your turn in a round you cannot ALSO use an immediate in the same round). Whats your thoughts?

 

[captnq]

Yes, you can in the same round, but not the same turn.
Let me explain. You seem to be using different terms interchangeably when you shouldn't.

You get in a round exactly ONE TURN (baring certain weird PrCs)

In a turn you get:
Unlimited Free Actions (Technically. The DM is allowed to put limits) But we don't care about free actions for this discussion. They exist, it's all that matters.

The base three actions:
1 Move Action
1 Standard Action
1 Swift Action


There are also two different actions that are modifications of the base three:
The Full-Round Action
The Immediate Action

A move action will always be a move action.
A standard action can be a standard action or a move action.
A Move and Standard action can be combined to make a full-round action.
A swift action can be a swift action, but it can also be an immediate action.

The immediate action can take place at any time, but it uses up your NEXT swift action in your NEXT turn (even if you are currently IN that next turn.). It can interrupt any action, another PC's action, an NPC's, or even YOUR OWN actions. For example:

A. I am in a fight. I use a quickened magic missile. It uses up my swift action. I jump off a cliff. Falling is a free action, I hit the ground. I would love to use feather fall as an immediate action, but I can't. Falling is a free action and it resolves first. I have no swift action left, because it is still my turn.

B. I am in a fight. I use a quickened magic missile. It uses up my swift action. I instead flip off the Dungeoncrasher as a free action and end my turn. The very next initiative count, the Dungeoncrasher Bull Rushes me and pushes me right off the cliff. Falling is a free action, BUT I choose to interrupt my own fall and cast feather fall, an immediate spell. It uses up my NEXT swift action.

Upon hitting the ground I stand there and wait. The round ends, a new round begins. My turn starts again. I get a Move action, a Standard action, but I already used my Swift action. I cannot activate any swift action items. I cannot perform any swift action feats. I cannot cast a quicken spell. However, the moment I am willing to say, MY TURN IS OVER, I can cast an immediate spell.


Do not confuse turns, rounds, and full-round actions.

A turn is what happens when my Initiative count is reached:

Ed goes on 5
Mark goes on 3
NPC WARGO the BURNIATOR goes on -2

Doesn't matter. You could have a -45 to initiative, but everyone gets 1 TURN every ROUND. Initiative isn't a matter of how fast you go, just the order.

A round is a unit of time. If I cast a spell that takes 1 full-round ACTION to cast, then I get to do it ON MY TURN, but it still happens on my turn WITHIN a round.

If I have a spell with a 1 round casting time, I start casting on my turn and DO NOTHING. I can't take a swift action. I can't have used an immediate action before this turn. I must have my full turn at my disposal when I start to cast my spell with a 1 round casting time. THEN, I declare I am casting the 1 round spell and my turn ENDS. I do NOTHING until my next turn. During that whole time I am casting, I am subject to AoOs to anyone who wanders past me, subject to interruption, there are so many ways to mess with me because I can't even take a 5 foot step.

At the start of my next round, The spell goes off, and I get a turn with all my actions refreshed. But during that round, I can't do jack, can't even use an immediate action because it takes the WHOLE round, not the FULL round.

In effect, during a 1 round casting time, my turn never ends. My turn is on going and I am frozen, gesturing, murmuring, whatever, until the spell resolves.

You can then extrapolate that out with 1 minute, 10 minute, casting times. Or 10 round and 100 round casting times.

Sounds like you are confused about what a full-round ACTION is and what a 1 round casting time is. They are NOT the same.

And note, it was even more confusing in 3.0, where it wasn't a full-round action, it was just called full-round. People got confused about full-round meaning 1 round. Because, hey, 1 round is a full round, right? They added full-Round ACTION to make it stand out more, but really, someone at D&D needed to get a thesaurus.

 

[kexmal]

Yes, you can in the same round, but not the same turn.
Let me explain. You seem to be using different terms interchangeably when you shouldn't.

You get in a round exactly ONE TURN (baring certain weird PrCs)

In a turn you get:
Unlimited Free Actions (Technically. The DM is allowed to put limits) But we don't care about free actions for this discussion. They exist, it's all that matters.

The base three actions:
1 Move Action
1 Standard Action
1 Swift Action


There are also two different actions that are modifications of the base three:
The Full-Round Action
The Immediate Action

A move action will always be a move action.
A standard action can be a standard action or a move action.
A Move and Standard action can be combined to make a full-round action.
A swift action can be a swift action, but it can also be an immediate action.

The immediate action can take place at any time, but it uses up your NEXT swift action in your NEXT turn (even if you are currently IN that next turn.). It can interrupt any action, another PC's action, an NPC's, or even YOUR OWN actions. For example:

A. I am in a fight. I use a quickened magic missile. It uses up my swift action. I jump off a cliff. Falling is a free action, I hit the ground. I would love to use feather fall as an immediate action, but I can't. Falling is a free action and it resolves first. I have no swift action left, because it is still my turn.

B. I am in a fight. I use a quickened magic missile. It uses up my swift action. I instead flip off the Dungeoncrasher as a free action and end my turn. The very next initiative count, the Dungeoncrasher Bull Rushes me and pushes me right off the cliff. Falling is a free action, BUT I choose to interrupt my own fall and cast feather fall, an immediate spell. It uses up my NEXT swift action.

Upon hitting the ground I stand there and wait. The round ends, a new round begins. My turn starts again. I get a Move action, a Standard action, but I already used my Swift action. I cannot activate any swift action items. I cannot perform any swift action feats. I cannot cast a quicken spell. However, the moment I am willing to say, MY TURN IS OVER, I can cast an immediate spell.


Do not confuse turns, rounds, and full-round actions.

A turn is what happens when my Initiative count is reached:

Ed goes on 5
Mark goes on 3
NPC WARGO the BURNIATOR goes on -2

Doesn't matter. You could have a -45 to initiative, but everyone gets 1 TURN every ROUND. Initiative isn't a matter of how fast you go, just the order.

A round is a unit of time. If I cast a spell that takes 1 full-round ACTION to cast, then I get to do it ON MY TURN, but it still happens on my turn WITHIN a round.

If I have a spell with a 1 round casting time, I start casting on my turn and DO NOTHING. I can't take a swift action. I can't have used an immediate action before this turn. I must have my full turn at my disposal when I start to cast my spell with a 1 round casting time. THEN, I declare I am casting the 1 round spell and my turn ENDS. I do NOTHING until my next turn. During that whole time I am casting, I am subject to AoOs to anyone who wanders past me, subject to interruption, there are so many ways to mess with me because I can't even take a 5 foot step.

At the start of my next round, The spell goes off, and I get a turn with all my actions refreshed. But during that round, I can't do jack, can't even use an immediate action because it takes the WHOLE round, not the FULL round.

In effect, during a 1 round casting time, my turn never ends. My turn is on going and I am frozen, gesturing, murmuring, whatever, until the spell resolves.

You can then extrapolate that out with 1 minute, 10 minute, casting times. Or 10 round and 100 round casting times.

Sounds like you are confused about what a full-round ACTION is and what a 1 round casting time is. They are NOT the same.

And note, it was even more confusing in 3.0, where it wasn't a full-round action, it was just called full-round. People got confused about full-round meaning 1 round. Because, hey, 1 round is a full round, right? They added full-Round ACTION to make it stand out more, but really, someone at D&D needed to get a thesaurus.

Good I like your break down but dont see how that gets past what RAW saws let me quote it and it IS talking about ROUNDS (you added in your thought about rounds, i appreciate your opinion but nothing you said settles the dispute just your opinion on ambiguous text): Page 7 top left corner: "During a normal ROUND you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full round action. You can also perform a wsift OR an immediate action, and as many free actions as your DM allows." end quote. now tell me that unless that "or" is an inclusive "or" which it may be (but they may have well said "and" not "or") then what you are saying is inconsistent with raw. Many look at JUST immediate action description and fail to notice what I just quoted. So, tell me that that is an inclusive "or" then fine but why use an inclusive "or" when we can just use an "and". I know the diff between rounds and turns you just failed to notice that clause in the rules compendium. Tell me that that clause is an inclusive "or" and fine but it is not. In regular english "or" is used in the exclusive sense. i just think you are mistaken and ill need to hear more than a break down of what you think RAW is to be convinced. Meaning by raw no you cant take both a swift and an immediate. If you take a wsift you cant use an immediate. If you DONT take a swift and USE an immediate then you CANT use a swift your next turn. Imagine this scenario: I take a swift, then an immediates thats by RAW?? I take an immediate on my turn then ANOTHER immediate??? No RAW doesnt allow two immediates in one turn JUST like it doesnt allow two swifts in one turn. If I DONT take a swift and THEN take an immediate I forfeit my swift for the next round. Meaning, immediates are more limiting than swifts. Which makes sense. You will need to give me alot more quotes from RAW to convince me than just a breakdown of how you think it works. So the whole debate rests on the designers meaning of an "or." And whether it is inclusive or exclusive. And by the context it is an exclusive "or."

 

[Dandu]

This is the second thread I have seen today on this subject.

The person above seems to have left a game with a DM who could not understand the difference between round and turn.


Well, enough of that. Let's talk about actions.

In the SRD, the text of immediate actions contains this descriptor:

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).

Ah, but what is a turn?

Well, a turn is when a character gets to act. (A round passes when each participant in combat has acted.)

 

[kexmal]

Swift/Immediate

The person above seems to have left a game with a DM who could not understand the difference between round and turn.

LOL whatever you say you arent understanding the rules compendium its nothing about rounds or turns at this point its about the meaning of "or." You are just mistaken ill tell you if you think you can take two immediates in one round then that is wrong. You cant take two swifts, you cant take two immediates and you cant take a swift and an immediate in one round. ALso, snide comments dont settle debates of course

 

[kexmal]

Well, enough of that. Let's talk about actions.

In the SRD, the text of immediate actions contains this descriptor:



Ah, but what is a turn?

Well, a turn is when a character gets to act. (A round passes when each participant in combat has acted.)

Yes disregard that weird description of immediate action that is not the point top left corner of page 7 of rules compendium. That is what is up for debate. Dont act as if I dont know what a round and a turn is.

 

[Dandu]

I'm sorry, but I don't own the Rules Compendium. Would you kindly provide me with the relevant information?

LOL whatever you say you arent understanding the rules compendium its nothing about rounds or turns at this point its about the meaning of "or." You are just mistaken ill tell you if you think you can take two immediates in one round then that is wrong. You cant take two swifts, you cant take two immediates and you cant take a swift and an immediate in one round. ALso, snide comments dont settle debates of course

Your eloquence moves me to tears.

If you read my message a little closer, however, you might note that not only do I not say you can take two swift or immediate actions per turn (not round, turn), but that I explicitly quote the rules that say why you can't.

 

[kexmal]

Dont see how to reconcile it saying that you can take a standard and a move. OR a full round. And either a swift OR immediate. What does that mean??? If it is an inclusive "or" then yeah BUT in the context it is an exclusive "or".

 

[kexmal]

DIRECT QUOTE: page 7 top left corner: "During a normal ROUND you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full round action (that is an exclusive "or" by the way of course). You can also perform an immediate action OR a swift action, and as many free actiuons as your DM allows." END QUOTe that is a direct quote except what is in parentheses and bold. Now tell me that the second bolded "OR" is NOT exclusive like the first.

 

[Dandu]

Dont see how to reconcile it saying that you can take a standard and a move. OR a full round. And either a swift OR immediate. What does that mean??? If it is an inclusive "or" then yeah BUT in the context it is an exclusive "or".

If it is your turn (not round, turn), then you can take a swift action, or an immediate action, but not both.

If it is not your turn (and you are not flatfooted), you cannot take swift actions, but you can take an immediate action, which eats up your swift action for your next turn (that point in combat when your character gets to perform most actions, such as moving, attacking, etc).

DIRECT QUOTE: page 7 top left corner: "During a normal ROUND you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full round action (that is an exclusive "or" by the way of course). You can also perform an immediate action OR a swift action, and as many free actiuons as your DM allows." END QUOTe that is a direct quote expect what is in parentheses and bold. Now tell me that the second bolded "OR" is NOT exclusive like the first.

Yes... you'll excuse me if I'm not quick to take your word for it. Do you have a more official source of information aside from yourself?