Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anabstercorian mate!

One thing that would be really nice: In the item creation rules, they don't describe what, exactly, you're spending money on. I mean, clearly you're spending it on material components and raw materials. But when you're spending billions and billions of GP on the raw materials... What exactly are you spending the money on? If you offered some guidelines and some examples on what the value of given components, that would be spiffy. After all, at a certain level, you CANNOT buy the raw materials for an item - Simply too rare, or too dangerous!

I'll see what I can come up with, it shouldn't be too hard to offer partial suggestions for DMs:

"The Frost Nexus weapon requires the tongue of a Xixecal tempered in the blightfire of a Winterwight."

I have some new materials in the book as well.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Impeesa mate!

One more.. can't resist... Where would you put the bonus for this?

Crusader's - a crusader's weapon increases its enhancement bonus by +1 whenever it scores a successful hit in combat. This bonus lasts until the wielder attempts an attack but misses, or goes an entire round without attempting an attack.

Believe it or not I actually have a very similar power called "Bitterness" which adds a cumulative +1 per attack, provided you keep attacking the same opponent. Once you change opponents it resets to +1 and starts again.

Bitterness is rated at +5

Crusader looks similar.

 

[Clay_More]

oho oho... vampire later today... woohoo...

Cant wait.... cant wait...

 

[Anubis]

Hi Impeesa mate!



Believe it or not I actually have a very similar power called "Bitterness" which adds a cumulative +1 per attack, provided you keep attacking the same opponent. Once you change opponents it resets to +1 and starts again.

Bitterness is rated at +5

Crusader looks similar.

Actually, UK, if I read his Crusader power correctly, it's a cumulative +1 ENHANCEMENT bonus, meaning the more he attacks, the more hit AND damage goes up, and the easier it is to bypass damage reduction.

For instance, if you have a +1 Crusader weapon, you'll do no damage to a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon AT FIRST, but after 14 hits, you'll start doing real damage. On top of that, you can switch opponents.

Imagine a shrewd character going after a bunch of kobolds and scoring like 100 successful hits . . . Or the old blind kobold in a can style routine . . . See where that goes real fast? This is balanced by the fact that a 1 is an auto-miss, but imagine a Greater Deity wielding this sort of weapon . . . See the problem now? This ability is worth at least a +10, although since it's effectiveness varies with the user, it's hard to judge.

I would say this weapon is impossible to rate without one more change to it. Perhaps a maximum enhancement modifier is in order, or a time limit to its use.

 

[Impeesa]

Well, there is sort of a time limit... the bonus resets to zero as soon as you go a round without attacking... and you have to hit with those attacks to keep the bonus, a miss resets it too. I always liked the idea, IIRC it was in the earliest version of Diablo as one of the random weapon abilities but was dropped in later patches due to balance issues.

--Impeesa--

 

[Upper_Krust]

Vampire Breakdown

Hi all!

Firstly, about the "Crusader" Power, remember (as Impeesa mentioned) there is a time limit.

Vampire:

Natural Armour +6: +0.6
Domination: +0.5
Energy Drain (2 Levels): +2
Blood Drain: +1.75
Children of the Night: +0.2
Create Spawn: +0.4
Damage Reduction 15/+1: +0.75
Turn Resistance +4: +0.2
Cold Resistance 20: +0.2
Electricity Resistance 20: +0.2
Spider Climb: +0.2
Alternate Form: +0.2
Fast Healing 5: +0.5
Ability Score increases: +1.8
Skills bonuses: +1.4
Bonus Feats: +1

Undead (Intelligent): +1*

*Includes all undead strengths and weaknesses.

+12.9 so far

Can be repelled, limited access to areas: -1
Sunlight Vulnerability: -2.5
Water Vulnerability: -0.5
Staking Vulnerability: -0.5

Final Total: CR +8.4

 

[Anubis]

Re: Vampire Breakdown

Skills bonuses: +1.4

You make it SO easy to point out big mistakes. Heh. Those skill bonuses are *not even close* to being worth an effective level and a half. It would take an insane number of bonuses to have that great an effect on a creature's power. To equate those skill bonuses with +14 natural armor or +14 in ability scores (both also worth +1.4) is INSANE.

Skill bonuses are worth MAYBE 0.01 per point, IF THAT. Perhaps 0.1 per +20 (all rounded down) would be an even better indication. Maybe even less, to be honest. It depends on the skills. Any which way, skills have no great effect until epic levels, and even then are just cursory bonuses at best. The only exception is perhaps Tumble, which is the only true utility feat that has a direct effect on anything.

I think you'd be best served rating those bonuses at a total of 0.2 (+8 to seven skills, +56 total) using the 0.1 per +20. That would make the template worth a total of +7.2 to CR.

(For another way to figure out that your current calculation is totally incorrect, simply put those same bonuses on a Level 1 character with 10 in every stat. Your current system rathes such a character at CR 2.4, or just CR 2. Would you honestly say that character is more powerful or even equal to a character who instead has the standard ability score array of 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, which is CR 2.2, or also CR 2? I think the answer is QUITE obvious.)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Vampire Breakdown

Hi Anubis mate!

You make it SO easy to point out big mistakes. Heh.

Those skill bonuses are *not even close* to being worth an effective level and a half. It would take an insane number of bonuses to have that great an effect on a creature's power. To equate those skill bonuses with +14 natural armor or +14 in ability scores (both also worth +1.4) is INSANE.

Skill bonuses are worth MAYBE 0.01 per point, IF THAT. Perhaps 0.1 per +20 (all rounded down) would be an even better indication. Maybe even less, to be honest. It depends on the skills. Any which way, skills have no great effect until epic levels, and even then are just cursory bonuses at best. The only exception is perhaps Tumble, which is the only true utility feat that has a direct effect on anything.

I must admit I deliberated over how to factor skill bonuses for some time. My reasoning for using the above was simple:

Each Feat is worth +0.2 CR. A feat can add +4 to a skill (something regarded as universally low, which I increased to +8). Therefore every 8 bonus skill points is akin to an extra feat (+0.2). The vampire has 56 bonus skill points which therefore worked out at CR +1.4

Or do you think such Feats should allow even more than +8 skill points?

I think you'd be best served rating those bonuses at a total of 0.2 (+8 to seven skills, +56 total) using the 0.1 per +20. That would make the template worth a total of +7.2 to CR.

So you would allow a feat to bestow +56 to skills?

(For another way to figure out that your current calculation is totally incorrect, simply put those same bonuses on a Level 1 character with 10 in every stat. Your current system rathes such a character at CR 2.4, or just CR 2. Would you honestly say that character is more powerful or even equal to a character who instead has the standard ability score array of 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, which is CR 2.2, or also CR 2? I think the answer is QUITE obvious.)

Putting this or that ability on a 1st-level character is always going to be a terrible way of trying to gauge a CR. A more effective method is balancing the particular ability with its peers.

 

[Clay_More]

Heya Again

Hmm, I dont think that skill points should be underrated as well. Anyone tried playing a Wizard with low Concentration? Your combat abilities are significantly decreased. How about trying to counterspell with a very low Spellcraft score?
Another case, you try being a rogue sneaking up on someone to get that Sneak Attack thats your only choice of defeating your opponent, if the opponent has +20 listen and spot. Tumble is another combat-usable skill, yes, but not the only one. Off course, you can always argue if it's worth it, compared to such benefits as natural armor & fast healing.

Btw, Krust, got a chance to look at "moi" template?

 

[Anubis]

I must admit I deliberated over how to factor skill bonuses for some time. My reasoning for using the above was simple:

Each Feat is worth +0.2 CR. A feat can add +4 to a skill (something regarded as universally low, which I increased to +8). Therefore every 8 bonus skill points is akin to an extra feat (+0.2). The vampire has 56 bonus skill points which therefore worked out at CR +1.4

Or do you think such Feats should allow even more than +8 skill points?

The thing is, the feats are not equal in power. As to feats, I would judge them on a case-by-base basis. Think about it. Some feats, like Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes, are good for anybody. Others, like Power Attack and Combat Casting, are only useful in the right hands. Some others, like Endurance and Skill Focus, are only good as prerequisites or as RP feats, having no actual utility use.

You have been very detailed with every other part of your system, so there is no reason not to do the same with bonus feats, as they are as varied as spell-like abilities. If anything, do what you yourself said and compare. Great Constitution, an EPIC FEAT, gives you +1 Constitution, which is only worth +0.1 to CR. Therefore, it's obvious that not all feats are anywhere near equal. I will leave the divisions to you for now, but if I see something "off", I will indeed call you on it.

Putting this or that ability on a 1st-level character is always going to be a terrible way of trying to gauge a CR. A more effective method is balancing the particular ability with its peers.

Okay. How many extra skills are worth +14 to ability scores?

Hmm, I dont think that skill points should be underrated as well. Anyone tried playing a Wizard with low Concentration? Your combat abilities are significantly decreased. How about trying to counterspell with a very low Spellcraft score?

Concentration is ONLY useful to spellcasters, although it is indeed useful. Consider how many levels it's worth, though. Heck, come Level 7 or Level 8, Concentration checks almost never fail anyway during casting on the defensive! As for Spellcraft, as a DM of over three years just for this game, it is my experience that counterspelling is not a common thing, so that's a hard thing to judge. I have seen NO counterspelling in my time playing this game.

Another case, you try being a rogue sneaking up on someone to get that Sneak Attack thats your only choice of defeating your opponent, if the opponent has +20 listen and spot.

Unnecessary. You don't have to sneak up on your opponent, just flank him or catch him flat-footed. Not an issue.

Tumble is another combat-usable skill, yes, but not the only one. Off course, you can always argue if it's worth it, compared to such benefits as natural armor & fast healing.

Tumble is the ONLY universally useful skill for all classes during combat.

Basically, I'm not underestimating these things. I simply don't think they're worth anywhere close to a whole level until you have hundreds of bonuses in skills. Want more? Consider that once you get a, say, +20 to a single skill, you're already gonna succeed at anything and everything you'll do with that skill. Probably sooner usually, especially for vampires.

Basically, compare the usefulness of different things. How many skills are worth ability score points? Better yet, ask players, how many skill bonuses would they trade an ability score point for? I would bet you would get a VERY high number, IF they are willing to trade at all. The only reason for taking things like Skill Focus, if EVER taken (as is VERY rare), is more for RP purposes than for in-game purposes.