Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

ENWorld game at Gencon

Hi all!

Anyone interested in playing in the ENWorld game at Gencon UK should take a look at this thread:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=740075#post740075

I'll be at Gencon UK. I will also have the first section of the Immortals Handbook with me at the show (for definite) even if the SRD has not yet been updated at that time.

There may be a limited number of 'playtest' *cough* copies available...

 

[Anubis]

Hi poil brun mate!

Hope the job is still going well for you!?

It is a tricky one, the real question is how many skill points can you add with a feat.

No, that is not how it's done. You do not equate skill points to the absolute weakest feats. You have to go with the average power of feats. Skill Focus is nearly useless most of the time, and NEVER has ANY great effect on the game.

You simply CAN NOT compare skills and feats, because if you try, you will quickly realize how useless skills are compared to feats. MOST skills (all but like three of them in fact) are RP skills only and have no ACTUAL bearing on the game mechanics. As such, they should hardly be factored. I'm sorry, but 8 skill points are not equal to a feat.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

If you wanna know how useful the skills are, make two vampires, one by your system and one with my changes, otherwise EXACTLY THE SAME. Then make them fight each other. They should be a whole CR apart, maybe a whole EL. As such, if skills truly had an effect, you would notice a power difference. I wager, however, that you will see no power difference.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

No, that is not how it's done. You do not equate skill points to the absolute weakest feats. You have to go with the average power of feats.

Exactly, and the average Feat bestows +0.2 to CR.

Skill Focus is nearly useless most of the time, and NEVER has ANY great effect on the game.

Any creature works to its strengths. Obviously there is no point giving bonuses to contradictory factors.

You simply CAN NOT compare skills and feats,

On the contrary, I can and I have.

because if you try, you will quickly realize how useless skills are compared to feats. MOST skills (all but like three of them in fact) are RP skills only and have no ACTUAL bearing on the game mechanics. As such, they should hardly be factored.

You are thinking one-dimensionally here.

I'm sorry, but 8 skill points are not equal to a feat.

Possibly 10 points as I already mentioned. I don't see it being higher than that though.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

Actually, from the start I have endeavoured to compare feats to feats.

If you wanna know how useful the skills are, make two vampires, one by your system and one with my changes, otherwise EXACTLY THE SAME. Then make them fight each other. They should be a whole CR apart, maybe a whole EL. As such, if skills truly had an effect, you would notice a power difference. I wager, however, that you will see no power difference.

This is a flaw in your thinking. Skills are more of a roleplaying characteristic than an overt combat characteristic, but that doesn't mean they are any less useful.

 

[Anubis]

This is a flaw in your thinking. Skills are more of a roleplaying characteristic than an overt combat characteristic, but that doesn't mean they are any less useful.

The flaw in your thinking is overrating skills. I would say a single feat is worth perhaps 40 skills points AT LEAST, if not more.

Unless you can offer some bit of game-related proof with playtesting that supports your theory, I'm afraid you haven't a leg to stand on this time.

You were right on many things, but I'm afraid this time I have to hold my ground and say +20 in skill bonuses is worth +0.1 maximum to CR, counting only WHOLE increments of +20 in skill bonuses. Playtesting simply does not support your theory in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Anubis]

A challenge

I have a better idea, UK. You wanna test your theory? I CHALLENGE YOU. We will test your system.

You make a, say, Level 21 character, and I will do the same. We will both use the standard array plus normal bonuses for levels, making standard characters. The exception: you will get, as per YOUR standards, say . . . +400 to skills, as per your choosing (CR +10). I, on the other hand, will get an "equal number of feats based on CR value", or in this case, 50 bonus feats of my choosing (also CR +10). Then we will have a one on one battle. According to your numbers, we should have a 50/50 chance both ways. I contest that I will EASILY defeat you. Characters will be of standard core races and classes, and the books allowed will be the PH, the DMG, the MM, and the ELH, and no "inherent bonus" books will be allowed. For simplicity purposes, let's set wealth to exactly 1,000,000 gp for both of us. Both characters should thus equate to around CR 33.

How about it? If you're so confident, bring it on. I will smite this silly skill modifer thing right off the face of EN World.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

The flaw in your thinking is overrating skills. I would say a single feat is worth perhaps 40 skills points AT LEAST, if not more.

That seems somewhat ludicrous.

The game system is d20 remember. Adding even +20 to a skill from a feat would be giving someone a +100% success rate.

Unless you can offer some bit of game-related proof with playtesting that supports your theory, I'm afraid you haven't a leg to stand on this time.

LOL!

You were right on many things, but I'm afraid this time I have to hold my ground and say +20 in skill bonuses is worth +0.1 maximum to CR, counting only WHOLE increments of +20 in skill bonuses.

Totally impractical.

Playtesting simply does not support your theory in any way, shape, or form.

Simply because you are only playtesting combat itself, not roleplaying, which is wherein skills are pertinent.

 

[Anubis]

Simply because you are only playtesting combat itself, not roleplaying, which is wherein skills are pertinent.

You must have forgotten that CR, the issue at hand here, is only pertinent to combat itself to begin with!

If it's an RP modifier, it doesn't belong on the CHALLENGE Rating.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: A challenge

Hello again mate!

I have a better idea, UK. You wanna test your theory? I CHALLENGE YOU. We will test your system.

You make a, say, Level 21 character, and I will do the same. We will both use the standard array plus normal bonuses for levels, making standard characters. The exception: you will get, as per YOUR standards, say . . . +400 to skills, as per your choosing (CR +10). I, on the other hand, will get an "equal number of feats based on CR value", or in this case, 50 bonus feats of my choosing (also CR +10). Then we will have a one on one battle. According to your numbers, we should have a 50/50 chance both ways. I contest that I will EASILY defeat you. Characters will be of standard core races and classes, and the books allowed will be the PH, the DMG, the MM, and the ELH, and no "inherent bonus" books will be allowed. For simplicity purposes, let's set wealth to exactly 1,000,000 gp for both of us. Both characters should thus equate to around CR 33.

How about it? If you're so confident, bring it on. I will smite this silly skill modifer thing right off the face of EN World.

Hilariously you are pitting non-combative skills up against combative feats.

What happens if I use my +400 to Handle Animal to train an advanced Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon ( very easily it must be said)? Or my +400 to Diplomacy and get a whole epic city working for me of their own free will. Not to mention a 21st-level Wizard with +400 to Spellcraft.

 

[Clay_More]

I would still say that skills are very important. Many ARE RP oriented, but still. Many knowledge skills give "indirect" help in combat. Examples...

1: Group fails its Knowledge (The Planes) and don't know that their fireballs & flaming swords won't hurt the Demon/Devil theyre facing... Theyre f****d
2: Wizard fail his Concentration check when casting the Teleport that would have gotten the group away safely. Theyre f****d
3: Group is fighting in unusual circumstances, such as while climbing or underwater, where Climb & Swim are paramount. If they have neither skill...... Theyre f****d
4: A knight has one thousand feats that enables him to do maximum, extra damage when charging. But, someone scares his horse and he lacks the Ride skill to stay on.... His F****d

Off course, in open arena combat, two humans facing of, they have little chance using their skills. But many skills have tremendous impact on combat anyhow. Enemy camp, Move Silently & Hide + Coup de Grace?

 

[Upper_Krust]

You must have forgotten that CR, the issue at hand here, is only pertinent to combat itself to begin with!

If it's an RP modifier, it doesn't belong on the CHALLENGE Rating.

Think upon skills as a latent situational modifier.