Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Anubis]

My point is NOT that skills have ZERO effect, my point is that the effect is far smaller than you all seem to rate it. That is why I advocate +0.1 per +20 in skill bonuses. I still factor the skills in, just not near as much. You factor skills at two and a half times the rate I do.

The thing is, I understand that this varies from campaign to campaign. In my campaign, the skills Tumble, Iajutsu Focus, Search, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (fusion), and Knowledge (ritual casting) are the only skills that have a real effect on the game, and two of those are difficult skills to learn to begin with. YMMV.

I was under the impression, however, that UK's system was supposed to be *universally applicable*. Yet it would not apply to my campaign one bit. If I was in a minority, that would be one thing. I venture, however, that there are as many DMs out there who run campaigns similar to mine as there are those who run campaigns where skills are meaningful. In that case, what's the fix?

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

'Lo yet again!

I feel that one of the most important uses for skills is CHARACTER FLAVOR. Can you imagine a Rogue who can't sneak, a Bard who can't sing? When it comes down to it I like to think of D&D as an endless novel, not just meaningless numbers. And besides, skills do have major effects on the game, as much or more than feats.

In Example: If none of your characters had the search skill could they have gotten as far as they have? Or would they have even half their wealth? Most skills have uses in most of the games I run. I've never had a Paladin who could not ride a horse. Or a Wizard who couldn't concentrate.

Originally posted by Anubis
You're comparing apples and oranges.

Oranges are WAY better!

Originally posted by Upper Krust
There may be a limited number of 'playtest' *cough* copies available...

*sigh* I unfortunatly will not be there.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

My point is NOT that skills have ZERO effect, my point is that the effect is far smaller than you all seem to rate it. That is why I advocate +0.1 per +20 in skill bonuses. I still factor the skills in, just not near as much. You factor skills at two and a half times the rate I do.

I am entertaining the notion that it could be 5 skill points per +0.1 CR (Skill Focus would therefore bestow +10)

But as you rate them a feat like Skill Focus will add +40 to skill and I just can't fathom such a change being prudent.

The thing is, I understand that this varies from campaign to campaign. In my campaign, the skills Tumble, Iajutsu Focus, Search, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (fusion), and Knowledge (ritual casting) are the only skills that have a real effect on the game, and two of those are difficult skills to learn to begin with. YMMV.

Exactly so you wouldn't want to be giving players +40 to those skills from a single feat now would you.

I was under the impression, however, that UK's system was supposed to be *universally applicable*.

I'd certainly like to think so.

Yet it would not apply to my campaign one bit.

I ever enjoy your overreacting mate!

If I was in a minority, that would be one thing.

Well so far every single person (except yourself) who has posted on the subject of skills in this thread has championed their effectiveness! So you are in a minority in that respect.

I venture, however, that there are as many DMs out there who run campaigns similar to mine as there are those who run campaigns where skills are meaningful. In that case, what's the fix?

Okay, well heres a wild and crazy idea just off the top of my head:

Just don't use factor #11. (Bonus) Skills in the CR/EL system!

I mean the system is totally modular after all.

 

[Aloïsius]

Hello UK!

Hiya mate!



According to the evidence presented it would appear he is a Proto-deity. His Challenge Rating would be in the neighbourhood of 500 or so.

500 ! I think I will join the church of Lord Kelvin !

I didn't remember* anything about proto-deity, are they primordial deity (the elder gods of the elder gods) or forces of the univers incarnated (entropy, law, good...) ?

* I fear I stayed away from this thread more longer than necessary, but now that the SRD will be completed (soon), I may have found a new hope

 

[Upper_Krust]

'Lo yet again!

Hi Dark Wolf mate!

*sigh* I unfortunatly will not be there.

Thats the Abyss for you.


Incidently the CR/EL revision is progressing well, a few tiny niggles with Breath/Gaze/Ray/Touch attacks that need sorting, and a lot of the MM/ELH CRs still need redoing but other than that its all looking good.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello UK!

Bonsoir mon ami!

500 ! I think I will join the church of Lord Kelvin !

I can imagine some really great beard related abilities Kelvin could have.

I didn't remember* anything about proto-deity, are they primordial deity (the elder gods of the elder gods) or forces of the univers incarnated (entropy, law, good...) ?

They are the First Ones: Entropy and Reality; Thought (Chaos) and Time (Law); Matter and Spirit.

* I fear I stayed away from this thread more longer than necessary, but now that the SRD will be completed (soon), I may have found a new hope

 

[Anubis]

I am entertaining the notion that it could be 5 skill points per +0.1 CR (Skill Focus would therefore bestow +10)

But as you rate them a feat like Skill Focus will add +40 to skill and I just can't fathom such a change being prudent.

Exactly so you wouldn't want to be giving players +40 to those skills from a single feat now would you.

You're not getting the point . . .

I do not advocate ANY changes to the Skill Focus feat. Not all the feats are equal, after all. Don't believe me? I have one word for you: "Endurance". That is the poster child for meaningless in this game, yet it is a feat. Indeed *I* have made it useful by making it the prerequisite for all my energy feats, but those are not core and certainly not used by everybody, unless of course you stick them in your book. The fact is, most of the feats at CR +0.2 do not equate with what they do.

Examples:

Weapon Focus gives +1 to hit with one weapon. If a character trait was simply "+1 to hit with dagger", don't even tell me that would be worth CR +0.2 when rated not as a feat. Continuing that example, +2 Strength is worth the same as a feat at CR +0.2, but yet does MUCH more than add +1 to hit with a single weapon. Let's take it a step further. In your system, the Epic Feat Great Strength gives Strength +2, which gies +1 to hit with ALL melee weapons, +1 to damage with ALL melee weapons along with bows, and increased carrying capacity. Why even take Weapon Focus if you can just keep taking Great Strength? The answer is simple . . . NOT ALL FEATS ARE EQUAL. They aren't even all worth the same as the same abilities bestowed as abilities instead of feats!

Weapon Specialization gives +2 to damage with a single weapon. Yet it gives CR +0.2 just the same as Great Strength. Great Strength would only give +1 to damage, but would give it to ALL weapons. See the tilt here?

Let's ignore the Epic Feats now for a moment.

Track. Very rarely used.

Maximize Spell. Used A LOT. Which does more? Maximize Spell of course!

How about Point Blank Shot? You get +1 to ranged attacks within 30 feet. This is worth less than Weapon Focus even!

See where I'm going with this? Many of the feats do not bestow abilities that are worth CR +0.2 in and of themselves. Hell, maybe that's your problem. Maybe you're overrating feats. After all, you have stated that all feats are worth CR +0.2, but Epic Feats are obviously much more powerful. Have you ever considered lowering feat value to CR +0.1 perhaps?

Regardless, my point is, the abilities' worths and the feat values and the skill bonus values will NEVER equate because there are too many variables!

Hell, how about this:

Compare "Alchemy +8, Appraise +8, Climb +8, Decipher Script +8, Heal +8, Innuendo +8, Read Lips +8" to "Balance +8, Concentration +8, Iaijutsu Focus +8, Jump +8, Knowledge (fusion) +8, Knowledge (ritual casting) +8, Tumble +8". It's obvious which set of bonuses is more useful. The first is, at best, worth CR +0.05, but the second is easily worth CR +0.5 due to the usefulness. The idea is to strike a balance, because the skills ARE NOT EQUAL. Factor in EVERYTHING you get with a level. These things simply are not worth that much.

Like I said, maybe you just rate feats too high. Maybe you rate feats too low. Who knows? I do know that everything has a different value, though. You gotta strike a balance.

Perhaps:

0.1 per feat
0.2 per Epic feat
0.1 per 20 skill bonuses

Think about it.

Okay, well heres a wild and crazy idea just off the top of my head:

Just don't use factor #11. (Bonus) Skills in the CR/EL system!

I mean the system is totally modular after all.

The problem is I wanna use your revised CR listings as-is without reworking everything. Or will those bonuses be for templates only? I KNOW I'm getting your book even IF I don't use this system of yours, because I DO wanna see your work on the gods. I just wanna be able to use everything, and I'm willing to help you if you're willing to listen.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

You're not getting the point . . .

I seem to be getting the shaft.

I do not advocate ANY changes to the Skill Focus feat.

Well thats a pity because they are clearly broken.

Not all the feats are equal, after all. Don't believe me? I have one word for you: "Endurance". That is the poster child for meaningless in this game, yet it is a feat. Indeed *I* have made it useful by making it the prerequisite for all my energy feats, but those are not core and certainly not used by everybody, unless of course you stick them in your book.

It should be a +10 bonus.

The fact is, most of the feats at CR +0.2 do not equate with what they do.

Examples:

Weapon Focus gives +1 to hit with one weapon.

I increased this to +2

If a character trait was simply "+1 to hit with dagger", don't even tell me that would be worth CR +0.2 when rated not as a feat. Continuing that example, +2 Strength is worth the same as a feat at CR +0.2, but yet does MUCH more than add +1 to hit with a single weapon. Let's take it a step further. In your system, the Epic Feat Great Strength gives Strength +2, which gies +1 to hit with ALL melee weapons, +1 to damage with ALL melee weapons along with bows, and increased carrying capacity. Why even take Weapon Focus if you can just keep taking Great Strength? The answer is simple . . . NOT ALL FEATS ARE EQUAL. They aren't even all worth the same as the same abilities bestowed as abilities instead of feats!

See above.

Weapon Specialization gives +2 to damage with a single weapon. Yet it gives CR +0.2 just the same as Great Strength. Great Strength would only give +1 to damage, but would give it to ALL weapons. See the tilt here?

Yes. +2 is greater than +1. Thats the price you pay for specialisation. Added to that Great Strength is an epic feat and as such can only be taken at epic levels.

Let's ignore the Epic Feats now for a moment.

Okay.

Track. Very rarely used.

Maximize Spell. Used A LOT. Which does more? Maximize Spell of course!

How about Point Blank Shot? You get +1 to ranged attacks within 30 feet. This is worth less than Weapon Focus even!

See where I'm going with this? Many of the feats do not bestow abilities that are worth CR +0.2 in and of themselves. Hell, maybe that's your problem. Maybe you're overrating feats.

Point Blank Shot gives +1 to attack and damage. I think the 30 ft. limitation probably balances with the uber feat that is Rapid Shot.

After all, you have stated that all feats are worth CR +0.2,

On average, yes.

but Epic Feats are obviously much more powerful.

Not really. Especially when you factor the prerequisites. They are simply logical progressions (for the most).

Have you ever considered lowering feat value to CR +0.1 perhaps?

Its not a consideration.

Regardless, my point is, the abilities' worths and the feat values and the skill bonus values will NEVER equate because there are too many variables!

Not really, I have only changed about a half dozen regular feats and a half dozen epic feats (counting the great [ability score] feats as one choice) and they all seem to fall into place well enough.

Hell, how about this:

Compare "Alchemy +8, Appraise +8, Climb +8, Decipher Script +8, Heal +8, Innuendo +8, Read Lips +8" to "Balance +8, Concentration +8, Iaijutsu Focus +8, Jump +8, Knowledge (fusion) +8, Knowledge (ritual casting) +8, Tumble +8". It's obvious which set of bonuses is more useful. The first is, at best, worth CR +0.05, but the second is easily worth CR +0.5 due to the usefulness. The idea is to strike a balance, because the skills ARE NOT EQUAL. Factor in EVERYTHING you get with a level. These things simply are not worth that much.

They are not wholly equal but they are roughly equal; as with class levels.

Like I said, maybe you just rate feats too high. Maybe you rate feats too low. Who knows?

I do.

I do know that everything has a different value, though. You gotta strike a balance.

Perhaps:

0.1 per feat
0.2 per Epic feat
0.1 per 20 skill bonuses

Think about it.

Seemingly I have thought about very little else of late.

0.2 per Feat
0.2 per Epic Feat
0.2 per 10 bonus skill points

The problem is I wanna use your revised CR listings as-is without reworking everything.

I hardly see it as reworking everything. Yet again you have latched such a minor nitpick and blown it out of proportion.

Or will those bonuses be for templates only?

They are for the handful of monsters who have extra skill points for whatever reason (typically racial). For all the minor difference thats ever going to make to a CR.

I KNOW I'm getting your book even IF I don't use this system of yours, because I DO wanna see your work on the gods.

Well I appreciate the love mate!

I just wanna be able to use everything,

You can please some of the people all of the time; and all of the people some of the time; but you can't please all of the people all of the time...

...unless you can smell what the Krust is cookin'!

and I'm willing to help you if you're willing to listen.

I have listened, pondered upon and responded to every comment you have ever made towards me or my system. I don't see how I can be any fairer than that mate? I appreciate everyones comments and help; whether I agree with them or not - if I don't agree with them I always post my reasoning.

 

[Impeesa]

Re: ENWorld game at Gencon

Hi all!

Anyone interested in playing in the ENWorld game at Gencon UK should take a look at this thread:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=740075#post740075

I'll be at Gencon UK. I will also have the first section of the Immortals Handbook with me at the show (for definite) even if the SRD has not yet been updated at that time.

There may be a limited number of 'playtest' *cough* copies available...

Arg! Curse me and my western Canada residence - and starving student budget. Although the skiing is great here, I'll give it that.

--Impeesa--

 

[poilbrun]

I still think that some of the changes are not necessary, and could unbalance the game at low level. Skill focus +10? That means that a skill that can maximum be at +9 at level 1 (4 ranks, 5 for ability bonus if 18 + 2 for race) can be boosted to +19? Weapon focus +2? That means a level 1 fighter is on par with his weapon of choice when compared to a fighter 3 without weapon focus (as far as hitting with the weapon is concerned only, of course)? I even think that +2 to an ability score for 1 feat is too much. Normally, you can gain 2 points in your ability score every 8 levels. With 1 feat every three levels, that means more or less +5 every 9 levels, if you put everything in the same ability score (I know there are some very useful epic feats that a character might take instead of this one, but let's say he focuses). At +2 to one ability score, that would clearly mean that the +1 every 4 levels is just a cosmetic change! But then, since I do not agree with those changes, I'll just not apply them, easy.

As far as skill point go, I still believe UK gives them too much power, but Anubis does not give them enough. I have yet to see a monster, or a template, that has bonus skill points in truly useless skills. Since this is the only case in which the modifier to CR for skills applies (remember that we do not modify a rogue CR because he has a lot of skill points), I believe that the easy way would be to up a little the value of skills from what UK proposed. 56 skill points were equal 14 ability score points, which is 1 point = 4 skill points. Lets make it 1 point = 5 or 6 points.

As for Gen Con UK, I won't be able to make it this year.