Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Clay_More mate!

Btw, Krust, got a chance to look at "moi" template?

I'll get to it after I reply to...

Hi Anubis mate!

The thing is, the feats are not equal in power.

Neither are the levels, but as with feats they are all supposedly balanced.

As to feats, I would judge them on a case-by-base basis.

I can't think of anything more tedious. Even when you get done rating all 100 PHB feats and 200 ELH feats individually what is the difference going to be between 0.1 and 0.3 I imagine - hardly worthwhile.

Think about it. Some feats, like Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes, are good for anybody. Others, like Power Attack and Combat Casting, are only useful in the right hands. Some others, like Endurance and Skill Focus, are only good as prerequisites or as RP feats, having no actual utility use.

Okay so some feats are better in certain hands. Some magic items are better in others too, but do they then cost less, no.

You have been very detailed with every other part of your system, so there is no reason not to do the same with bonus feats, as they are as varied as spell-like abilities.

I am not going through the 300 feats individually, its not worth it.

If anything, do what you yourself said and compare. Great Constitution, an EPIC FEAT, gives you +1 Constitution, which is only worth +0.1 to CR.

If you had waited for the final version of the IH before 'jumping the gun' you would know that I have changed a handful of feats from both the PHB and ELH - including the Great [Ability Score] Feats - which now add +2.

Therefore, it's obvious that not all feats are anywhere near equal. I will leave the divisions to you for now, but if I see something "off", I will indeed call you on it.

I expect nothing less mate!

Okay. How many extra skills are worth +14 to ability scores?

56

 

[Anubis]

56

That's insane to say the least. Just compare them. How useful are they when compared to each other? NOT EVEN CLOSE. I would say that 14 ability score points is worth AT LEAST 280 skill bonuses. Thnks of it like this: say you have +1 to pretty much every skill. That's what, 30 some odd skills? (Don't feel like counting.) Can you honestly say that is as useful as ability score points?

Get real.

Sorry, there's no way I would equate those skill bonuses to things that actually have somewhat of an effect on the game itself.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Skills? Feats? What the heck!

Upper_Krust.

What happened? Did I miss something? Since when are feats and skills factored into the CR equation? Both are integral to character class and level, and therefore already factored into your system. Take the fighter for example; they are all feats. Do you mean to give them CR modifiers for each of their bonus feats in addition to their character level? Looks like a clear case of double-dipping to me.

 

[poilbrun]

56

The main problem with this is that 14 ability points also mean a 7 ability bonus, which applies to skills. This bonus has an impact on skills. Let's imagine a wizard who get 14 more points to his INT score. That's a 7 bonus to alchemy, craft, knowledge arcana, scry, spellcraft, and maybe other knowledge skills. Even without any other knowledge skills, that's already 35 skill points, and I did not even count the skills that are not on his spell list but in which he may have ranks, or those that can be used untrained. Of course, all abilities are not equal in this matter, but then the other bonus they give are not equal neither.

As such, I believe that 14 ability scores are worth more than 56 skill points. Maybe it would be sensible to reduce the impact of skill points on CR.

Cheers!

 

[poilbrun]

Re: Skills? Feats? What the heck!

Upper_Krust.

What happened? Did I miss something? Since when are feats and skills factored into the CR equation? Both are integral to character class and level, and therefore already factored into your system. Take the fighter for example; they are all feats. Do you mean to give them CR modifiers for each of their bonus feats in addition to their character level? Looks like a clear case of double-dipping to me.

As I see it, feats and skill points are to be taken into account mainly for templates, or for "extra"

Let's imagine a template that gives no bonus except two feats and 20 bonus skill points. It would give no modifier for bonus hit dice, no special attack, so that would mean no CR modifier. However, it actually gives you a bonus, so there should be CR modifier. That's why you need modifiers for SP and feats.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

That's insane to say the least. Just compare them. How useful are they when compared to each other? NOT EVEN CLOSE. I would say that 14 ability score points is worth AT LEAST 280 skill bonuses. Thnks of it like this: say you have +1 to pretty much every skill. That's what, 30 some odd skills? (Don't feel like counting.) Can you honestly say that is as useful as ability score points?

14 ability points (at best) provide 7 bonus points to (on average) 7 different skills:

Strength 3 skills
Dexterity 9 skills
Constitution 1 skill
Intelligence 11 skills (counting knowledge as one choice)
Wisdom 8 skills
Charisma 9 skills

Total 41 (lets say 42); divided by 6 = 7. On average each ability score affects seven different skills

Therefore seven bonus points to seven different skills is less than the +56 bonus I advocate.

Get real.

Sorry, there's no way I would equate those skill bonuses to things that actually have somewhat of an effect on the game itself.

Irrelevant. The real question is how many skill points would you allow a feat to bestow!?

Personally I think +8 (possibly +10 but that could be stretching things?)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Skills? Feats? What the heck!

Upper_Krust.

Hiya mate!

What happened? Did I miss something?

Yes actually.

Since when are feats and skills factored into the CR equation?

When they are bonus feats and skills not appropriated from Hit Dice or Class Levels. As with the vampire template.

Both are integral to character class and level, and therefore already factored into your system.

Exactly. But what happens (as with certain monsters) when you add extra feats and skills that are not included in the Hit Dice and Class Level make-up.

Take the fighter for example; they are all feats. Do you mean to give them CR modifiers for each of their bonus feats in addition to their character level? Looks like a clear case of double-dipping to me.

True. Which is why, by now, you have realised thats not how it works.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi poil brun mate!

Hope the job is still going well for you!?

The main problem with this is that 14 ability points also mean a 7 ability bonus, which applies to skills. This bonus has an impact on skills. Let's imagine a wizard who get 14 more points to his INT score. That's a 7 bonus to alchemy, craft, knowledge arcana, scry, spellcraft, and maybe other knowledge skills. Even without any other knowledge skills, that's already 35 skill points, and I did not even count the skills that are not on his spell list but in which he may have ranks, or those that can be used untrained. Of course, all abilities are not equal in this matter, but then the other bonus they give are not equal neither.

As such, I believe that 14 ability scores are worth more than 56 skill points. Maybe it would be sensible to reduce the impact of skill points on CR.

Cheers!

It is a tricky one, the real question is how many skill points can you add with a feat.

I really see the upper limit being 10 at best (akin to the epic skill focus feat)

That would mean 5 skill points would equal 1 ability point. 10 skill points would equal one ability point bonus.

It means that the vampires 56 bonus skill points would be worth CR +1.1 (rather than 1.4)

 

[poilbrun]

Hi poil brun mate!

Hope the job is still going well for you!?

Well, the job in itself is OK, the fact of entering in a routine a bit less to my taste!

It is a tricky one, the real question is how many skill points can you add with a feat.

I really see the upper limit being 10 at best (akin to the epic skill focus feat)

That would mean 5 skill points would equal 1 ability point. 10 skill points would equal one ability point bonus.

It means that the vampires 56 bonus skill points would be worth CR +1.1 (rather than 1.4)

The fact is that you should be able to compare any modifier with any other modifier. Skill points should not be balanced with feats. They should be balanced with feats, ability score, special qualities, special attacks... There is clearly a problem if you arrive to a point where modifier A can be compared with modifier B and where modifier B can be compared with modifier C but you cannot succesfully compare modifier A and modifier C. I hope it is as clear as written as it is in my head

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi poilbrun mate!

Well, the job in itself is OK, the fact of entering in a routine a bit less to my taste!

Sometimes you just have to grin and bear it.

The fact is that you should be able to compare any modifier with any other modifier. Skill points should not be balanced with feats. They should be balanced with feats, ability score, special qualities, special attacks... There is clearly a problem if you arrive to a point where modifier A can be compared with modifier B and where modifier B can be compared with modifier C but you cannot succesfully compare modifier A and modifier C. I hope it is as clear as written as it is in my head

But thats just it, I think we can compare and contrast by using feats which being approximately CR +0.2 are a low common denominator.