Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!)

Anubis

First Post
Well, the debate as to whether or not ability scores should count when calculating CR/EL has raged for quite some time, but I have finally obtained the proof to end the debate once and for all.

The verdict: DO NOT count ability scores as doing so WILL eventually lead to a Total Party Kill!

The proof: There are several battle combinations I could use here, but I'll go with the one that offers the most conclusive and vivid proof.

Standard Level 2 Party V. Troglodyte Zombies

Why is this the best encounter to use as proof? Simply because I've played it several times (in the same night, trying to get the party through it alive), have seen what it can do, and know everything about it.

On one side we have a standard Level 2 party rolled up using the standard 4d6 method in the PH. We got a Fighter with 17/15/16/13/14/11 using a longsword with Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, Endurance, and Diehard. We got a Cleric of PELOR with 14/11/13/13/16/14 using a heavy mace with Improved Initiative, Combat Casting, and +2 to Turn Undead checks as well as both the Healing and Sun Domains. We got a Wizard with 12/12/15/16/11/10 using a dagger with Toughness and Combat Casting. We got a rogue with 15/16/15/12/10/14 using a short sword and a composite shortbow with Acrobatic and Nimble Fingers. Basically we got your average run-of-the-mill party. Fighter dude with a big sword, good cleric with her deity's favored weapon, wizard with a pokey thing and spells, and a rogue with a light poker weapon that's made for searching for and disarming traps more than anything else. This is basically the iconics right here, and with damn good ability scores.

On the other side . . .

Zombie; Troglodyte Zombie: CR 2/3, EL 0; Medium Undead; HD 4d12+3; hp 29; Init -2; Spd 30 ft. (can’t run); AC 16, touch 8, flat-footed
16; Base Atk +2, Grp +3; Atk +3 melee (1d10+1, greatclub) or +3 melee (1d4+1, bite) or +3 melee (1d6+1, slam) or +0 ranged (1d6+1,
javelin); SQ Single actions only, damage reduction 5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits; AL NE; SV Fort +1, Ref -1, Will +4; Str 12,
Dex 7, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1.

Skills and Feats: Toughness.

Undead Traits: Immunity to all mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, damage to its
physical ability scores, fatigue, exhaustion, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is
harmless); not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain; not at risk of death from massive damage, but when
reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.

Now I have done this battle two ways: my modified way and the official UK way. My modified way, which works CRs closer to the party's level, STILL results in a TPK here, and using the official UK way, it's just downright nasty.

My way: I don't factor the party's ability scores, but I take the CRs directly from the most Appendix itself, Version 5. I use the old Version 4 method of determining overall EL, though, taking the base EL and increasing it based on the number of enemies. This results in a Level 2 Party at EL 5 each facing SEVEN Troglodyte Zombies to have what is a "standard" encounter (EL 5 in this case). Well, after playing the battle multiple times, there is WAY (short of cheating the dice rolls and/or the monsters rolling bad every time while the players roll great every time) for the party to win this. Between the 29 hp and massive attacks, one slashing weapon simply isn't enough. Don't even try to say the battle was stacked due to only having one slasher, because it isn't. Even the treasured iconics Tordek, Jozan, Mialee, and Lidda use this weapons setup, the only difference being that Mialee has a rapier instead of a dagger; that right there shows that traditionally only the fighter really gets the slashing weapons while spellcasters get bludgeioning weapons (and sometimes piercing weapons) and rogues get piercing weapons. What does this mean? A standard party can't win, period, as the zombies are pretty much immune to all of the party's attacks. Also, as far as Turn Undead goes, there is less than a 50% chance of getting it to work, and the HD are high enough to make it so only one or two get turned if it does work; the Sun Domain doesn't do much to add to that, and the zombies will quickly pound the fighter to mush.

The official UK way: This way is even worse. You see, UK counts the ability scores for the party, something I warned him was a bad idea. He never listened. My party CRs doing it his way are 4.3 (4), 3.8 (3.5), 3.3 (3), 3.9 (3.5); that makes them CR 14 and thus (with four members) EL 16-4=12. Also by his numbers, the same seven troglodyte zombies are CR 2/3*7=4-2/3 (4) and thus (with seven members) EL 9-5=4. See the problem now?! With my way even, the encounter was considered a standard encounter using 25% of the party's resources. Using the official way, this encounter was EL -8, supposedly "Easy" and using only 6.2% of the party's resources. By UK's estimation, the number needed for a normal encounter, well, we'd need 27 troglodyte zombies! CR 2/3*27=18 (18) and thus (with 27 members) EL 17-9=8. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that 27 of those things could flatten any normal Level 2 party in one round flat (well, two rounds flat because they gotta get there first, heh).

The answer: I took away the massive ability score penalty these things get and then calculated it using the Version 4 numbers to EL method and without counting the party's ability scores. The troglodyte zombie became CR 1.5 and thus EL 3, with TWO being an EL 5 encounter. The party finally won, but had to use that once/day Sun Domain power to do it.

Note: I can find absolutely no encounter anywhere that is "off" due to not counting ability scores while I can find massive numbers of encounters that are "off" due to counting ability scores.

@UK: Checkmate, old friend.

P.S. No, I'm not being a smartass. Me and UK have debated this in a friendly way for over a year. I'm just happy to finally find irrefutable proof on my side.
 

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Just want to make sure; when you say ability scores you mean within the 3-18 range possible by 4d6, right?
You would still count racial modifiers, but not the individual monster's more or less exceptional scores?

:)
 

Sorcica said:
Just want to make sure; when you say ability scores you mean within the 3-18 range possible by 4d6, right?
You would still count racial modifiers, but not the individual monster's more or less exceptional scores?

:)

The jury is still out on that one, honestly. The more I look at it, the more I see adding ANY ability scores to the calculation to be a very bad thing. If you simply count no ability scores for ANYTHING from ANY factor, then use CR DIRECTLY as ECL in ALL cases, then there seems to be absolutely no problem; I have yet to see even one example of doing such a thing messing up the system, whereas there are numerous examples to counting ability scores screwing things up.

Quick Note: The system shouldn't have to account for ID10T errors. ;) If someone is dumb enough to create a creature with 5 HD and 200 in every ability score, then he made his own bed and should have to lie in it. The rules should assume a little bit of common sense on the DM's part. All 30s is fine for a Solar, but it doesn't work with a Bugbear. :o
 
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Hi guys! :)

Ability Scores are obviously relevant. I mean we did that whole thing to death, I really don't want to dwell on it. There are hundred plus post threads on that stuff floating about.

The alternative therefore must be that one or more of the CR factors for the Zombie Troglodyte might be wrong - undead have always been a pain in my backside on this whole thing anyway. So I'll go over their stats tonight and see whats wrong and post back tomorrow.

Also in discussing the matter online with Anubis he posed the same problem with the Orc. I double checked the Orc and it turns out it should be CR 1 (it has greater than 1st-level NPC wealth; therefore it needs at least 1st-level PC wealth to buy its equipment.
 

Upper_Krust said:
Hi guys! :)

Ability Scores are obviously relevant. I mean we did that whole thing to death, I really don't want to dwell on it. There are hundred plus post threads on that stuff floating about.

The alternative therefore must be that one or more of the CR factors for the Zombie Troglodyte might be wrong - undead have always been a pain in my backside on this whole thing anyway. So I'll go over their stats tonight and see whats wrong and post back tomorrow.

Also in discussing the matter online with Anubis he posed the same problem with the Orc. I double checked the Orc and it turns out it should be CR 1 (it has greater than 1st-level NPC wealth; therefore it needs at least 1st-level PC wealth to buy its equipment.

They may be "relevant", but counting them in CR only breaks the system.

Oh, and if you give the orc a greatclub, javelin, and leather, he still falls into the 25 gp limit of level 1 NPC wealth and has MORE power!

Example 2: By core rules equipment, 8 orcs are CR 8 and thus EL 6; using the equipment I gave above, 12 orcs are CR 8 and EL 6. At level 1, my party would supposedly be CR 10 and thus EL 10, making either of the above encounters a supposed "Weak" 25% encounter. In actuality, 12 or even 8 orcs on a level 1 party is quite likely a TPK, and if not, will certainly require the players to get serious medical attention and use 50% or more of their resources. Of course the wizard could use Sleep if he has one memorized, but then a second encounter would certainly be a killer.

Primarily, the two big problems are ability score CR penalties and factoring in player ability scores at any point whatsoever. Of course the ability score CR increases for monsters don't break the game as no one notices because it only makes the game easier by overrating monsters, meaning it gets overlooked simply because it doesn't hurt the players. The goal is to make the game better for DMs and players alike, so it is factors that hurt players that need to be removed, at least when it creates THIS type of situation.
 

Anubis said:
Primarily, the two big problems are ability score CR penalties and factoring in player ability scores at any point whatsoever.

Great. So don't count ability scores.

Let's see...

Doing it "your way" the above party has EXACTLY the same chance of success as they would if their ability scores were straight 3's across the board, straight 10.5's, or straight 18's.

That's so obviously wrong I don't know why I bothered to post a reply...

EDIT: The solution is somewhere in the multiplication of fractional CR's, I would guess.

EDIT2: Which is not to say that you haven't correctly pointed out a problem, Anubis. For starters I think UK under-rates the trog zombie. If the SRD rates them at CR 1, by strict conversion (as opposed to adding factors), that would make them CR 1.5 in the UK system.

I am also not a big fan of his rounding methods (Table 1-1, Fractional CR Ratings). My instinct would be to always round up to the next higher value. The orc weighs in at like .922 but UK rounds him down to .5 (resulting in CR 2/3).

EDIT3: Don't forget to apply the Golden Rule to the PCs. The purpose of the golden rule is to prevent CR factors from overbalancing a creature based on its level or HD. Unless I did something wrong, that would make their CR's 2.95, 2.7, 2.45, and 2.75 respectively. Total party CR 10.85, adjusted EL 10. (Versus "don't count" method total party CR8, adjusted EL 9).


Wulf
 
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Anubis said:
The jury is still out on that one, honestly. The more I look at it, the more I see adding ANY ability scores to the calculation to be a very bad thing. If you simply count no ability scores for ANYTHING from ANY factor, then use CR DIRECTLY as ECL in ALL cases, then there seems to be absolutely no problem; I have yet to see even one example of doing such a thing messing up the system, whereas there are numerous examples to counting ability scores screwing things up.

Quick Note: The system shouldn't have to account for ID10T errors. ;) If someone is dumb enough to create a creature with 5 HD and 200 in every ability score, then he made his own bed and should have to lie in it. The rules should assume a little bit of common sense on the DM's part. All 30s is fine for a Solar, but it doesn't work with a Bugbear. :o

Anubis:
As we have agreed on in these threads a long time ago, racial and template modifiers to CR should be added. Wouldn't you say that the Succubus' 26 charisma makes it just a bit more frightening than if charisma was 10? anfd one of the things that make giants bad@sses is their very high strength.

So racial modifiers, size modifiers and so on should be counted. This is especially true if you want to use CR as ECL.

All:
I think that UK counts the 'elite' specimens of certain races as +1 CR because that's what their ability scores add up to. IIRC, he also rates a PC party as +1 CR higher for the same reason. UK, is this correct? I would just ignore all high or low stats for PC's and certain named NPC within the 3-18 range that didn't come from race, size etc.

Wulf:
IIRC, you don't apply the golden rule to PC's.


I hope this can of worms can be closed again quickly, so UK can actually release the IH!

:)
 

Sorcica said:
Wulf:
IIRC, you don't apply the golden rule to PC's.

As this example demonstrates, though, you have to. Why wouldn't you?

Take Spell Resistance. A 1st level character with high SR (or other costly component) is NOT getting the full value out of the added CR, and as Anubis pointed out, he'll get wiped.

I have some other problems with UKs system that are starting to rear their ugly head-- the 2/3 (1/2 for dragons) conversion rule just isn't making any sense anymore. I'll bring it up here when I have a couple spare minutes to make sure my concerns are coherent.

Wulf
 

Hi Sorcica mate! :)

Sorcica said:
All:
I think that UK counts the 'elite' specimens of certain races as +1 CR because that's what their ability scores add up to. IIRC, he also rates a PC party as +1 CR higher for the same reason. UK, is this correct?

Thats for parties that take the standard array.

Sorcica said:
Wulf:
IIRC, you don't apply the golden rule to PC's.

Yes you do. The only time it would likely infringe would be at low level though.

Sorcica said:
I hope this can of worms can be closed again quickly, so UK can actually release the IH!

:)

Work was progressing pretty quickly this week...least...til now. :p
 

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