Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[Alzrius]

This is something of a ridiculous question, but (since I assume) the Dire (and related) templates only multiply racial hit dice, what do I do for creatures that have no such hit dice, such as the standard PHB races?

For example, if I wanted to stat out Gargillian, a macrobe human with 3,036 hit dice (from the High Cosmic adventure idea for the Nexus Dragon), how do I get those hit dice if class hit dice aren't multiplied, and he has no racial hit dice as a human?

EDIT: For that matter, could the template be applied to a human at all? The template entry (particularly the category for increasing the CR) seems to imply that it can only be applied to Animals and Vermin.

 

[dante58701]

He noted that those templates could be modified to apply to other creatures as well. But you have to do the modifications yourself. I think he was trying to inspire others to break out of the "thats not in the rules" mode, so they could let those creative juices flow. Too many people get discouraged when something isn't in "THE RULES", so Im assuming he made room for others to fudge his rules a bit in the interest of good clean fun. The modifications should be fairly simply. I wouldn't imagine the challenge ratings and what not would be very different, if any different at all. Just slip in the term "Humanoid" instead of animal. As for creatures with no racial hit dice, assume a racial hit dice of one for a base.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Gibborim/Red Dragon CR

Hi UK!

I was making of list of challenges around CR 50. I put down the Gibborim (CR 48) from volume 1 of the bestiary and the ancient red dragon (silver rule CR 52 according to v5 of the IH appendix). And then I stopped at looked at the statistics.

ancient red dragon: 527 hp, AC 39, 110 hp breath weapon (save DC 31), SR 28, etc.
gibborim: 2600 hp, AC, AC 57, devouring breath weapon (DC 78), SR 79, etc.​

Comparison of other items shows that the dragon is generally inferior to the gibborim (e.g. spell-like abilities) although not always (flight). How is it that you calculated the ancient red dragon to have a higher CR than the gibborim?

Is the gibborim wrongly CRed, or is the dragon?

 

[Fieari]

v5 of the appendix more accurately calculates ECL, not (WotC style) CR. The bestiary uses WotC style CR. Multiply the value given in the appendix by 2/3s to get this value. (Alternatively, use the ECL for the gibborim instead, multiplying the given CR by 3/2 if none is given)

 

[Cheiromancer]

But a lot of the monsters in v5 have exactly the same CR as WotC gives- it shouldn't be necessary to multiply them. And I thought I read UK say that technically his CR is the same as WotC's; has he changed his definition?

What I think is that WotC relied on the CR+4 = EL+2 business too much. They figure that if a given monster is a very tough fight (75-100% resources) for a 20th level party, that made it a CR 27 or 28. In actuality that would be a CR 40 the way that UK calculates things; and multiplying 40 x 2/3 is needed to compensate for the way that WotC playtests.

But monsters that aren't tested as boss monsters according to WotC's weird math shouldn't require multiplying. But if you say that the bestiary's critters are under-CRed, I'll believe you- it certainly makes the ECLs in the bestiary make more sense; last I heard CR was supposed to be the same as ECL.

[edit] Yep. That works perfectly. The bestiary CRs are those of boss monsters; multiply by 1.5 to get the "real" CRs. For constructs you need to add +0.1 CR per HD in order to add sentience.

Thanks!

 

[CRGreathouse]

By the way. I've been thinking about how to stat out a particularly nasty monster from the "King's Blades" series by Dave Duncan, the Firefly, and thing that it would work well as a One Dimensional creature. For your 2-D critters, do you use it as a subtype?

I'm thinking the 1-D subtype might involve...

* Unable to be struct by piercing or slashing weapons
* Damages bludgeoning weapons that strike it
* Unable to be hit by rays (except on a nat 20?)

Anything else come to mind?

The Firefly, by the way, is an unkillable (in the books, but I'm not sure how it'd react to magical cold) fire elemental that exists as a single flying point that has a natural lifespan of just a few minutes/hours (it's noramlly created as the result of a spell anyway). Anything it touches catches fire instantly, even normally unflammable things like stone; and it can pass through anything as if it were insubstantial. It has animal intellegence only, but seeks after anything that moves.

A point is 0-dimensional. A 1-D creature would be a line (or a portion thereof, to be pedantic). A 1-D template shouldn't prevent slashing damage, since severing the line would be very effective. I agree that a 0-D template should stop slashing and piercing damage, or at least make them very difficult.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

This is something of a ridiculous question, but (since I assume) the Dire (and related) templates only multiply racial hit dice, what do I do for creatures that have no such hit dice, such as the standard PHB races?

For example, if I wanted to stat out Gargillian, a macrobe human with 3,036 hit dice (from the High Cosmic adventure idea for the Nexus Dragon), how do I get those hit dice if class hit dice aren't multiplied, and he has no racial hit dice as a human?

EDIT: For that matter, could the template be applied to a human at all? The template entry (particularly the category for increasing the CR) seems to imply that it can only be applied to Animals and Vermin.

At the start of the Bestiary I outline how to determine Hit Dice for Natural Creatures.

A Human (using that method) should start with 3 Hit Dice.

As for applying the templates to other monster types, you do have to be careful, since different type HD is valued at different CRs.

So you could do it, but I would need to go over the CR with you. I seem to recall Fieari tried this a while back with a Teratoid Hydra, which had a very low CR because the template is not rated for Magical beast.

 

[Alzrius]

At the start of the Bestiary I outline how to determine Hit Dice for Natural Creatures.

A Human (using that method) should start with 3 Hit Dice.

Hmm, are you referring to Table 1-3, Expanded Size? That lists Medium creatures should have a minimum of 2 hit dice, and a maximum of three. So humans would naturally have the maximum? I'm slightly wary of that value, as most creatures with only class levels are understood to have a single hit die that is dropped when they gain a class level.

EDIT: Note that, if humans have a base 3 hit dice, Gargillian should have 3,072 hit dice, not 3,036.

As for applying the templates to other monster types, you do have to be careful, since different type HD is valued at different CRs.

So you could do it, but I would need to go over the CR with you. I seem to recall Fieari tried this a while back with a Teratoid Hydra, which had a very low CR because the template is not rated for Magical beast.

Hmm, I may come back to this in the near future then, for an epic monster I'm working on.

 

[dante58701]

On that note...legendary creatures should have divinity, albeit they would not be overtly powerful, as all outsiders with such and such hit dice are considered to have such and such divine templates. So that would imply animal cults. This concept has brought me much joy, though it has made me wonder if the Legendary Companion, Legendary Steed, ect. divine abilities might be a tad overpowered. Mayhaps they should be cosmic, rather than divine? Or perhaps a ruling stating that such a companion or steed can be no more powerful than a deities divine avatar and state that such a companion, though ultimately free-willed, counts against the deity's total divine avatars?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Hmm, are you referring to Table 1-3, Expanded Size? That lists Medium creatures should have a minimum of 2 hit dice, and a maximum of three. So humans would naturally have the maximum? I'm slightly wary of that value, as most creatures with only class levels are understood to have a single hit die that is dropped when they gain a class level.

I think he's taking the height (in feet) and dividing by 2. Then modify by build; dwarves would start at 2 (half of 4 feet tall) but would get boosted to 3 because they are stocky. If you are 8 feet tall (implying 4 HD) you aren't medium; you're large.

This is one of those cool rules that ultimately gets dropped because it conflicts with the WotC expectations. Like the wealth = level cubed x 100 gp rule. Or the CR = ECL convention.