Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[WarDragon]

The Nightwyrm has a lot of abilities that really, really shouldn't be given to animals, even if they're Extraordinary. Normal animals don't have regeneration, or exhale clouds of poison, or breath underwater without gills, or mimic any known vocal pattern, etc. If it was just a really big snake with no tricks, it would be an Animal, but as you have it, everything screams "Magical Beast" to me.

So you agree that it is a failing of the rules.

I think it's one of many parts of the rules that are excessively confusing, but I really don't see any way to make it less so.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Who remembers the Moigno's from Planescape, the little math-concepts?

Those could be fun to stat, make a hierarchy reaching clear up in to transfinites...

 

[Fieari]

I don't remember them (never having played planescape except the videogame "Torment" which is awesome by the way)... but I did google them, and found http://www.mimir.net/monsters/moignorational.shtml and http://www.mimir.net/monsters/moignoimaginary.shtml which is good enough for me. I think it'd be best to rework them from the ground up though.

First of all, imaginary numbers aren't any more imaginary than rational numbers! It's just that you use positive natural numbers to count discrete things, rationals to compare two things, negatives to describe debt, and "imaginaries" to describe direction. The complex number 0+1i means to rotate 90 degree to the left (off the normal number line). I'd much rather see Imaginary Moignos do plane shift effects than limited wishes.

At any rate... let's see. How many different types can we get? Sorted by my suggested progression of power...

Whole (weakest, it even excludes 0)
Natural (like whole, but with 0)
Rational
Negative (undead?)
Algebraic (necessarily stronger than rational, weaker than complex)
Irrational
Real
Imaginary/Negative Imaginary
Complex
Normal

Uncountable Moigno sets could be divine. Bounded sets would be divine, unbounded cosmic? By which I mean, the Mandelbrot, Cantor sets would be divine, while "Odd Numbers", "Even Numbers", "Prime Numbers" would be cosmic.

That would leave the Alephs alone to be transcendent (aleph-0 is a monad, aleph-1 is a duad, aleph-2 is a triad, etc). Omega would be a demiurge.


Here's some reccomended traits I thought up without any real basis except "2d living mathematical concepts"

Moigno traits
-------------

Moigno are Abberations that embody mathematical concepts, somehow feeding off numbers. All inherent moigno abilities are extraordinary, even when they would seem to be supernatural.

2-Dimensional (Ex): Moigno, being two dimensional creatures, are extremely vulnerable to higher dimensional weapons. As such, moigno suffer an additional x2 damage from critical hits. However, due to the extreme nature of the edge, critical hits delivered from a 2-d creature's natural slam attack automatically possess the sharpness, keen, and vorpal qualities. 2-d weapons deal full damage on a touch attack.

Blindsight (Ex): Moigno don't see like other creatures do, rather they sense the fundamental mathematical nature of existence. They are not subject to gaze attacks, or anything that relies on sight. The distance a particular moigno can sense differs by species.

Sideways Stealing (Ex): As the feat, except as an extraordinary ability. Moigno use this ability to feed.

Unique (Ex): All moigno are considered to be unique beings for the purpose of summon and calling spells.

Moigno possess the Lawful subtype, even if their alignment is chaotic. Chaotic moigno also possess the chaotic subtype. Moigno are never good or evil, nor are they ever true neutral.

Proficient with its natural weapons only.

Proficient with no armor.

Moigno eat, but do not sleep or breathe.

 

[Anabstercorian]

If we're assuming complex numbers are more dangerous than rational numbers, we should also tremble before the might of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion s and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octonion s.

I have a friend who's a math major. I'll run this by him.

 

[Buugipopuu]

The higher tier ones definitely need to have complex hitpoint totals (Complex Toughness Transcendental Ability?*), rendering them unkillable by normal beings who can only attack the real component of their hitpoints.

*Opens the way for a Tensorial Toughness Omnific Ability

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

The higher tier ones definitely need to have complex hitpoint totals (Complex Toughness Transcendental Ability?*), rendering them unkillable by normal beings who can only attack the real component of their hitpoints.

*Opens the way for a Tensorial Toughness Omnific Ability

I think this would be best written as the Interdimentional ability. (based on descriptive text for interdimentional and Undimentional)
These guys would have some seriously mean powers. Many could be arbitrary like the Thelemic Damage Induction or Thelemic [Effect] (Possibly also keyed to other D20 conditions other than dead for lower level Moignos)

List of powers from Ascension that could work as a base:
[sblock]Adjuration: For multiplicative/addative.
Anyfeat: Variables
Convergent: This is mean.
Gravitas
Mercurial
Quantum Effect
Possibly the "Sense" series, if they are ever finished
Telluric Effect
Either Unknowing or Intellectual Mind/Body/Etc.
Cosmic -
Cosmic String?
Counter Strike?
Daunting Mind/Body/Etc?
Inner Eye
Legion
Nullification?
Thelemic powers. (see above)
Time Dilation
Etc
[/sblock]
Now, its a big (and incomplete) list of likely powers, and most would be unnessessary. To do this, there should be a "Concrete" hierarchy. Then, we could assign ECLs/CRs to each tier and build from there. (So if "Normal Numbers" are decided as being ECL 180-220, then we might give them one or two cosmic-like powers and two to four divine-esque powers)

This doesn't seem too hard. Someone should just assign rough CR/ECL values and/or Hit Die ammounts, and people could just create and post 'em as they have time.

 

[dante58701]

Updated...any suggestions?

Nightwyrm
Huge Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 10d8+133 (173 hp)
Initiative: +4 (+4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 120 ft. (24 squares), climb 120 ft., swim 120 ft.
Armor Class:33 (-2 size, +22 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 30
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+24
Attack: Bite +49 melee (8d8+37 plus poison)
Full Attack: Bite +49 melee (8d8+37 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 8d8+37, improved grab, poison, poison breath, spit poison
Special Qualities: Amphibious, damage reduction 5/ - , darkvision 60 ft., evasion, low-light vision, regeneration 5, scent, sound imitation, virtual size categories 2, water breathing
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +9, Will +3
Abilities: Str 60, Dex 11, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +8 Climb +33, Hide +7, Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +33
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (Bite, Constrict) (B), Lightning Reflexes
Environment: Temperate wetlands
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-15 HD (Huge); 16-30 (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: +13

An immense shape slithers through the branches that form a canopy over the wetland mire. Its dark green form is nearly invisible against the leaves, but its serpentine eyes, unblinking and emerald, track its prey with cold precision. A nightmare made flesh, the nightwyrm is a horror to be reckoned with.

Many horrific tales tell of a single nightwyrm devouring an entire party of adventurers, one by one. This mighty constrictor snake likes to lurk the muddy banks, where wild animals stray from the plains to drink from the water. The creature's ability to hibernate for months at a time enables it to survive even the coldest winters.

Nightwyrms often venture onto land for mating purposes. Female nightwyrms bury their eggs in mudmounds deep in the muddy banks of their wetland homes and coil over these mud mounds to shield their eggs from harm.

Many male nightwyrms seemingly guard nearby, killing each other at random, and often attack enmasse, though the truth is, they just want to devour the hatchlings when they burst forth into the presence of their mother, who will also try to devour them. It would seem their maternal instincts only go so far.

A nightwyrm eats carrion, all other snakes, and fresh prey of all kinds. It even attacks its own kind on sight unless the opponent is clearly larger. The smaller nightwyrm usually flees from such a confrontation, and the aggressor rarely pursues for long.

A nightwyrm is a dark green snake with exotic black markings that help it hide in wetland settings.

A nightwyrm knows no languages, though it is able to imitate all known vocal patterns.

A nightwyrm is about 30 ft. in length and weighs about 60 tons (120,000 pounds), due to it's incredible muscular density.

Combat

Amphibious (Ex): Although nightwyrms are aquatic, they can survive indefinitely on land.

Nightwyrms are aggressive, relentless hunters. Those that live near water often drag their prey underwater to drown it. They usually save their breath weapons for defense against numerous foes, or to slay formidable opponents.

Nightwyrms, though not actually intelligent, displays an incredible amount of primitive cunning for an animal. They have the wisdom to plan ambushes, and they often collect treasure from victims and scatter it near a cave or a good ambush area to lure prey off a trail.

Nightwyrms have also been known to drive animals into ravines and over precipices, then leave their broken bodies for later feasting while they hunt other creatures. A nightyrm should never be underestimated.

Constrict (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a nightwyrm deals 8d8+37 points of damage.

Evasion (Ex): Despite their size nightwyrms are astonishingly agile and capable of twisting their great coils with amazing dexterity. If a nightwyrm is subject to an attack that allows a Reflex save for half-damage the nightwyrm takes no damage on a successful save

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a nightwyrm must hit an opponent up to one size category larger than itself with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. A nightwyrm often drags grabbed prey underwater to drown (see page 304 in the -Dungeon Master's Guide).

Poison (Ex): A nightwyrm has a poisonous bite that deals initial damage sleep for 6d4 rounds and secondary damage of 6d6 Con (Fortitude DC 34 negates). The save DCs are Constitution-based and include a +6 modifier to the DC due to the poison's heavily concentrated nature.

Poison Breath (Ex): Once per 1d4 rounds, a nightwyrm can breathe a 50-foot cone of poisonous gas (inhaled, Fortitude DC 28, initial damage sleep for 2d4 hours or until damage is taken, secondary damage 1d6 Con). This poison is a less concentrated variation of the poison derived from it's venomous bite. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Regeneration (Ex): A nightwyrm takes normal damage from acid or fire-based attacks and effects.

Skills: A nightwyrm gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks.

A nightwyrm can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

A nightwyrm can use either its Strength or its Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher.

A nightwyrm has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Sound Imitation (Ex): A nightwyrm can mimic any voice or sound it has heard, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a Will save (DC 15) to detect the ruse. The DC is Charisma-based.

Spit Poison (Ex): Nightwyrms are capable of spitting their venom at foes up to 100 ft. distant; this requires a normal ranged attack roll with no range increment. Fort DC 34; damage blind for 1d10 minutes/blind permanently. The save DC is Constitution-based and include a +6 modifier to the DC due to the poison's heavily concentrated nature.

Water Breathing (Ex): A nightwyrm can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon and other abilities while submerged.


Special Notes: The virtual size categories are due to the incredibly prodigious strength of this beastie. I know a 30 strength might seem more fair, but I was going for a snake that is incredibly powerful for it's hit dice and size. Something that could take a serious beating and deal out some serious damage, without bestowing upon it a slew of feats and skill points it really shouldnt have. It also makes the snake more managable to be of low hit dice (thus spellcasters could defeat it with an enchantment spell, and fighters would die quickly).

As these serpents are going to be "controlled" by yuan-ti in my campaigns. I figured this would solve the problem perfectly, without giving them so much power as to be insanely overblown.

Im a bit unsure about their challenge rating and level adjustments though. Should they be raised?

As for making it a magical beast...I decided that wasn't very fitting. It is meant to be a natural animal that pushes the limits of evolution in an extreme way.

As for constriction. I dont want it to be outdone by it's bite, so I improved that as well.

 

[Phantom Llama]

If it was just a really big snake with no tricks, it would be an Animal, but as you have it, everything screams "Magical Beast" to me.

In Dante's defence, 'Magical Beast' is a stupid and redundant type. I never make anything a Magical Beast without particularly pressing reason.

 

[paradox42]

In Dante's defence, 'Magical Beast' is a stupid and redundant type. I never make anything a Magical Beast without particularly pressing reason.

Agreed. There are many qualities the base rules define as Supernatural which could actually be produced via Extraordinary means; take for example a breath weapon spitting fire. All one really needs to get the same effect is a means of expelling a cloud of hydrogen, and a means of producing a spark to ignite it in an oxygen atmosphere; the former can be done with organic processes (though it is admittedly rare), and the latter can be done via an electrochemical reaction. Combine the two and voila: non-supernatural fire breath. Probably not all that damaging, but still- an impressive trick.

IMO if you can come up with a good, rational explanation for how an ability is performed, then there's no reason to make it Supernatural, and consequently a creature using that process which has an INT score of 1 or 2 can be an Animal as opposed to Aberration or Magical Beast.

That said, it sort of feeds into the topic of the moignos, which I also wanted to comment on. I like the Moigno Traits as defined so far, and the idea of making the sets and supersets the Immortal-level versions while the other "species" represent actual individual numbers is a stroke of brilliance. However, Fieari left one category out of the basic list of number types: where do Transcendental numbers fit? Certainly the Real Transcendentals should be less than Reals in power, but are they merely Irrationals, or something else? Imaginary/Complex Transcendentals are obviously on par with those categories, and probably not worth making a separate tier for.

But here's an idea, based on that notion: the Complex Moigno should actually be a template that one applies to a regular moigno, or even a pair (one Real and one Imaginary), since complex numbers are by definition additions of real and imaginary component numbers. If we continue in this logic, the Complex Moigno could then be like a lich or vampire in terms of power increase, and it gives us a base and excuse for statting up the Quaternions and Octonions as further templates. Say, Quaternion could be equivalent to Demilich, and Octonion something like an Akalich? Essentially, this takes the Cayley-Dickson construction (which is how Octonions are derived from Quaternions, and arguably how Quaternions are derived from Complex numbers, or even how Complex are derived from "lesser-tier" numbers) and applies the concept to living numbers as a series of templates. It even gives us a reason for why these increasingly powerful moignos appear: two moignos of lesser tiers meet, discover a task or ability they have in common, and via some process unique to the moigno "race" they either spawn or merge into something greater than themselves.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Well, then we must decide how many HD these things have, (and of what type. Abberation seems a bit odd. Outsider or Construct could also work, as could Elemental) and how they progress.
I propose the tiers of HD follow a pattern of perfect squares.
Ex:
Weakest: 1 HD (1x1)
2nd weakest: 4 HD (2x2)
3rd weakest: 9 HD (3x3)
4th weakest: 16 HD (4x4)
Etc..
Tier 20: 400 HD (20x20)
Etc. Use the perfect squares as a base, and allow advancement only up to the next tier.
Ex: The weakest kind are normally 1 HD, but they could get up to 3(or 4) but unless the undergo whatever means is needed to get to the next tier, they keep their same power set. (They just have more HD)
Just an idea. It would mean we would need a whole lot of these things to get to the high level tiers of power.
A series of doublings could work too. (Ex HD would go 1, 2, 4, 8, 16,.. etc)
Its gotta be something numerical in nature.