Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante mate!

Why bother changing it,

I haven't changed anything. I only suggested it might help alleviate more book-keeping.

that's just stupid and illogical considering that a mechanic already exists to deal with such insane notions.

Not to mention it's just more force fed pandemonium. Such rules should always be optional, not forced, thats like saying...you must do things my way and only my way.

This is very limiting and very irritating.

I think you are not only blowing this out of all proportion, you have also wrongly picked up on what I was saying. I'm not changing anything and if you had slowed down enough to actually read my post before you went off on your rant you would have realised that.

And it's not about hating, it's about noticing something that is seriously deranged. If a divine ability exists that allows 6 feats, then this force fed garbage not only becomes redundant...

...it also becomes severely pointless. Also, digestio is not available to mortals...so that is a mute point at best.

Im just saying that oversimplifications like this are actually over COMPLICATIONS. The system thus far, while far from perfect should not be generically simplified in such a manner.

While such a ruling could be introduced as an OPTIONAL idea...it should REMAIN OPTIONAL, not f**k with the whole system or with NONDIVINE characters.

It's ridiculous to bandy such rules together and just HOPE that everyone will think it's a novel and cool idea.

Not everyone will agree and not everyone will want force fed logistics.

A handful of people getting together online and getting along is no basis for rule changes and rearrangements when all ideas are not taken in to account.

While I may have grated on more than a few nerves here, Im being perfectly reasonable when I say that this should not be FORCE FED. It should be OPTIONAL.

Whatever happened to freedom on Enworld, or has that died. Must we all be part of the status quo now?

I exist as a counterpoint to popular notions because whats popular is not always right and whats right is not always popular.

Both ideas should be equally represented. I may not like the idea and you might not like mine, but Im not the only one out there who sees things the way I do.

You're certainly the only one here who sees giants instead of windmills.

Theres no excuse for a lot of the above language dante, asterisked or not.

Sure people here dont like me...but that is a poor excuse to just spout off and judge me and my counterpoints so harshly.

They were counterpoints to a problem you had wholly imagined and then blown out of all proportion, not a real problem.

As for people not liking you, its only Pssthpok who ever talks down to you and he talks down to me all the time...so your in good company.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ltheb mate!

I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves. U_K only suggested it as an idea to simplify things. I don't exactly agree with his exact numbers (I would prefer multiples of 10's. IE Take divine abilities at 100th+ level, cosmic at 1000th, etc) because of the reasons I mentioned before, but I can see the need to simplify the game at higher, more relativistic levels.

I think you could give characters a divine ability every ten levels (that incorporates standard and class feats). Fighters would get 3 divine abilities every 20 levels.

Dante brings up a good point in that at levels below 100, characters are more individuals than at later levels. Timelords are composite dimensions rolled up into one entity, and many share similar powers. The higher level you go, the more general your character gets until you have every power and feat conceivable. (Very high level indeed, but the if you had stats for Logos, he could do it; 14400 Divine slots covers most iterations of IH powers)

Though it doesn't matter, it was only a possible rule to use.

I see this idea more as a tool for DMs than as a hard rule thrust onto PCs. Players only have (usually anyway) one character to worry about, whereas the DM has lots of characters. It just simplifies that process further.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Hey there historian matey!

I think it's handy as is honestly. Here's where I am to date (I'm working the following off an Excel spreadsheet):

1. Determine DvR per Ascension pp. 27-45
2. Determine HD per Table 2-10
3. Determine HP per HD per Tables 2-10 and 2-11
4. Determine base AC per Divinity Template and Table 2-11 (dex plus charisma bonuses)
5. Determine BAB (all Deities IMC will have +1 BAB per HD)
6. Determine max damage per round (typically yielded through the application of Divine or better Abilities)
7. Determine DR per divinity template.

That's basically seven steps that will produce a 1st ed. style stat block. Works for me.

For saves I'm using basically what you proposed a few days ago:

1. For Deity vs. Deity the save number = 2 + 1/2 DvR differential
2. For Mortal vs. Mortal the save number = 2 + HD differential
3. For Mortal vs. Deity, Deities save on a "2" or better while Mortals save only on a "20" irrespective of levels, etc.

I can see how many folks might take exception to the foregoing #3, but it does capture that old school D&D feel and Immortality is technically attainable at level 15.

Why don't you just treat mortals as DvR 0 in such cases.

That way a mortal would need a 10 or higher (on a d20) to save against a greater god.

I'm also thinking about adding a couple of optional Divine Abilities although I lack names for them at the moment:

1. Ability Inspired by Heavy Eradication: At your option you can ignore any benefits conferred an opponents trait type (choose either Undead, Construct, or Elemental type). This Ability may be taken multiple times and each time it is taken it applies to a new type.

I'm thinking this is a Cosmic ability and should be named "Favored Dimensional Enemy" or something.

Interesting.

2. Ability(s) inspired by the Omega and Akashic Effects: You regenerate HD equal to your DvR per round or alternatively you regenerate DvR equal to 1/7th of your HD per round.

That one could be Omnific.

Maybe I'll make it "DM only."

Change that to DVR equal to 1/5th your HD. Thats what divinity is based upon.

 

[Pssthpok]

As for people not liking you, its only Pssthpok who ever talks down to you and he talks down to me all the time...so your in good company.

I'm an equal opportunity berater.

 

[WarDragon]

As for people not liking you, its only Pssthpok who ever talks down to you and he talks down to me all the time...so your in good company.

Only because I'm too polite to type what I'm thinking.

 

[dante58701]

As for people not liking you, its only Pssthpok who ever talks down to you and he talks down to me all the time...so your in good company.

Must be a blue-blood thing.

I'm an equal opportunity berater.

As long as it's fair.

Only because I'm too polite to type what I'm thinking.

I spose it's unreasonable to get along with everyone, but I do appreciate the courtesy.

 

[Pssthpok]

Only because I'm too polite to type what I'm thinking.

Man-up, WarDragon. Tell us how you REALLY feel.

Speaking of which; do you need a pencil sharpener or something, UK? What's the holdup? Or are you going to get the majority of the art done in one fell swoop before you update again?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Pssthpok dude!

Speaking of which; do you need a pencil sharpener or something, UK? What's the holdup? Or are you going to get the majority of the art done in one fell swoop before you update again?

I was planning on getting all the art done, then updating, but I'll see how things progress, I might do a first art update at the end of the month.

As for the art taking longer, it is slightly more complicated than the Bestiary art for two reasons: firstly most of the art are ensemble pieces (two or more characters fighting or interacting in some way) and secondly they involve a lot of humanoid figures (which means you have to take more care over the anatomy and clothing/armour/equipment).

However, I should have about nine done by this weekend, I haven't started inking yet but thats generally the easiest part of the process. I also have the cover image almost ready to go into production, two of the immortals attacking Surtur are still giving me some jip.

Too early to say what my favourite image is so far, probably Thrin vs. Orcus (or unnamed demon that looks suspiciously like Orcus).

 

[historian]

Hey U_K!

Why don't you just treat mortals as DvR 0 in such cases.

That way a mortal would need a 10 or higher (on a d20) to save against a greater god.

That could work. As straightforward as it seems I need to ruminate on it.

Interesting.

Thanks, credit to you.

Change that to DVR equal to 1/5th your HD. Thats what divinity is based upon.

Hey, thanks.

 

[paradox42]

Too early to say what my favourite image is so far, probably Thrin vs. Orcus (or unnamed demon that looks suspiciously like Orcus).

To be fair, Orcus really did "rip off" the main form traditionally ascribed to the Christian Devil in European folklore, other than the "Black Man" that was supposed to show up to witches' Sabbats of course. Orcus as described in the 1E Monster Manual is much fatter than The Devil is supposed to be, but as 3E has evolved he's gotten thinner again and more like the traditional Satanic appearance.

So, just mark the picture "Thrin vs. a Demon Lord" and you can be certain you won't be violating any copyrights- plus, most gamers who've been around a while will know exactly which one he's fighting and feel a little thrill for figuring out a secret (or getting an in-joke, depending on how you look at it).