Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[zarquin]

You could also allow an artifact to instead of enhancement bonuses give maybe ECL²/4 points of caster lvl*spell level to be used to give spells maybe 1/day,3/day, at will, or something similar. So sure, you could cast a quickened, maximized Time Stop at will but it could take 561(17*33) points worth, which wouldn't be available until 48th level and almost completely use one of your 4 artifacts.

 

[paradox42]

In the rules I made for Major Artifacts, I allowed expendable and charged items, with two changes from lower-power creations.

Expendable items (like potions) are destroyed upon use, just as they are at lower levels, but that use is the only way to destroy the artifact- which makes things very interesting if a deity/Immortal creature creates a true Doomsday Device (why would you ever make such an item to be used more than once?). This hinges on the fact that Major Artifacts are supposed to be very hard to destroy, with very specific requirements needing to be filled to do it- clearly if an "indestructible" item can be destroyed by using it, then it should be truly indestructible by other means. Furthermore, the item's sentience (all Major Artifacts are automatically sentient with my rules, though they often don't have any means of communicating that fact directly) will generally be geared towards using itself up at the first opportunity, so you end up with something similar to the intelligent bombs in the movie Dark Star.

Charged items (like staves- I don't allow Epic wands, though you could make a staff containing only one spell which would be effectively the same thing except for the caster-level rule) carry charges and use them up as normal, but they are not destroyed upon reaching 0 charges: instead, their charges spontaneously regenerate to full 1 year after being depleted to 0. While at 0 charges, the item is just a virtually-indestructible whatever-it-is, though many such items would logically be created with constant bonuses in mind so that they'd be useful as more than just "stop-the-crushing-ceiling-trap-from-working" sticks in the intervening year. Also, any items containing an Epic effect have their price calculations partly based on the number of times per day the effect can be used, regardless of how many charges it uses up when it's activated- so for example a staff containing 1 daily use of Hellball would cost half as much as one allowing 2 daily uses.

These rules have yet to be playtested in my games, so I'm unsure of their full balance implications. However, they do introduce interesting potential ideas for adventures and uses of artifacts in those adventures.

 

[Pssthpok]

Epic staffs follow the same design principles as non-epic staffs. Epic wands are just staffs, really. Epic potions... well, if there were any, they'd have to be frickin' impressive, like 'drink this and get additional spells known/per day for the rest of the day' or something.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Maybe I have too little faith in the 'standard' epic gamer, but I don't think breaking the game should be so easily spelled out for them. Penalties/restrictions on charged/'cheap' magic items?

I know in a game I ran, a mage wanted to make a headband of intellect in a low magic game. He didn't want to spend much money or Xp on it, and found some factors (-~25% cost = Item only usable by you, I believe) to make it easier for him. I told him, if he did that, there might be a 'defect' in the item. He didn't care. (Minor curse, unintentionally creating an intelligent magic item. A very 'elitist' headband. Would take away his Int bonus if he used his magic to help the 'inferior ones') He didn't seem to mind. (He was a Blaster-type mage anyway)

Perhaps something similar could be adapted for conditions with charged items? (Especially with items that only have a few charges of a powerful effect)


Epic potions could be cool. Perhaps an epic brew potion would allow brewing potions of spells 1-9. Or brewing a potion of multiple spells. Heck, maybe even brewing potions of Epic spells? (Max spell level brew-able = Caster Level/4. It would be an epic feat, so by the time you take it, your caster level should be at least 21, meaning you get 4th level potions out of the deal. Woohoo! Potions of Restoration!)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

I have some epic potions in the Grimoire.

I also have some epic wands. However I am not sure if I have any staves in the planning....I'll have to look into it. Maybe Dimensional Staves...hmm.

I think it could be cool to have 'charges' represent AMC feats.

 

[paradox42]

Perhaps an epic brew potion would allow brewing potions of spells 1-9.

There's a prestige class called the Master Alchemist that lets you do potions of levels 4-9 in Magic of Faerun, actually. And as far as I know, Arcana Unearthed item creation rules (since they don't fixate on the form an item takes, but rather its function) allow the creation of potions of any level with the standard Brew Potion-equivalent feat. There's no reason for it to be Epic, in other words- if you like limiting standard potions to 3rd level, just come up with something else for more powerful potions if you want such.

My game features two feats branching off of Brew Potion, one that allows creation of 4th to 6th level spells, and the other allowing creation of 7th to 9th level. Characters in my game just aren't that interested in creating their own potions, so nobody takes them; they have however become very interested on the two occasions when they happened to meet an NPC who had the higher potion feats. The Epic party's potions of Heal have been helpful more than once, and their potions of Commune (aimed at the world's Good-aligned Magic god- I ruled years ago that the deity who answers the questions is "set" by the crafter when that spell is put into a magic item of any kind other than a scroll) are genuinely precious to them.

Or brewing a potion of multiple spells.

I believe some of the "Elixirs" in the Wondrous Items list have multiple spell effects, but I don't recall which ones offhand and don't feel like looking them up right now. So I could be wrong. Anyway, again, if you want potions that do that in your game, I see no balance reason to make the feat Epic. Just be sure you use the price multipliers for items with multiple effects and you should be good.

Heck, maybe even brewing potions of Epic spells? (Max spell level brew-able = Caster Level/4. It would be an epic feat, so by the time you take it, your caster level should be at least 21, meaning you get 4th level potions out of the deal. Woohoo! Potions of Restoration!)

Potions of Epic spells would be Major Artifacts in my game, but they'd be allowed with the Major Artifact feat of course. More importantly, you can make a one-use artifact take any form you like, so for example I always pictured the one-use Vengeful Gaze of God item that I use as an example within the text of the feat to be something that looks like an exotic cannon of some sort.

 

[Kerrick]

ECL divided by 2.1 = bonus squared x 2000
ECL divided by 1.8 = bonus squared x 1000

And at the lower end, you'd have a +1 sword/armor at L2. I know your fomulae are what the numbers reflect, but don't you think these are a bit low?

Under my system you could have a +11 (+6/+5) shield at 22nd-level and a +11 (+6/+5) weapon at 31st-level.

No offense UK, but that's insane - a +11 item at 22nd level? Even if they're limited to 4 epic items, it's still way too low, IMO - you're devaluing epic items.

I don't see too many trading in a +5/+5 shield for a flat +6 shield.

Now there I'll agree. BUT, the merged progression that I put forward eliminates this problem quite nicely and at the same time prevents PCs from having things that are way too powerful for their level - you wouldn't be able to afford a +11 shield until 26th level with the standard wealth, or 28th with my progression (or 30th if you used the standard x10 multiplier).

Using your tables, if I try to design a +100 weapon, my cost is 100*100*95*2000, which is close enough to be bonus cubed. Yes, the difference may be noticable at the low bonuses, but by the higher bonuses it becomes effectively bonus cubed.

94, actually, but yeah... once you get to extremely high levels, everything tends to blur together. Not much I or anyone else can do about that - it's a fault of the system.

I agree that it is an utterly ridicuolous item, however barring the ad-hoc multipliers to make it a more expensive weapon, I fail to see how it breaks the rules at all.

Always epic?

And my point was far more directed towards the inherient flaw in epic wealth progression far more than anything else, the sword of win was just a silly silly example, because according to the ELH character wealth is supposed to double every 7 and a half levels, and if you double the cost of a bonus² item you increase the bonus by ~40%.

We can agree on that point - the epic wealth progression (indeed, the entire progression) is totally wonky. Why? There IS no progression. There is no set interval between levels that creates a smooth increase - I think they just made up numbers to keep up with the increasing costs of magic items.

Yes, using your system of wealth progression this solves the example, but so would using any system of wealth progression that increases at the same rate of magintude as the costs. Or just removes costs/wealth and gives the user a set bonus to their items which increases at level and ignores costs all together. Which seems more like what U_K is doing with his system.

But you have to have wealth, to account for things like disposable items and non-epic items, as several people (yourself included) have already pointed out. After 40th level, we all pretty much agree that wealth goes out the window and PCs can take whatever they want, within reason, but before that.... there's got to be something in place. UK's formulae are great for creating NPCs on the spot, or for quick-and-dirty PC creation, but if I were to make something at a level higher than 1st, I'd rather have a set amount of wealth to work with.

Epic potions could be cool. Perhaps an epic brew potion would allow brewing potions of spells 1-9.

It is a cool idea, but I think paradox has a point - just extend the normal Brew Potion feat to cover L4-9 spell effects; call L4-6 potions draughts and L7-9 potions elixirs.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Well, by 40th level, wealth indeed should have been a thing of the past. I would estimate that wealth breaks down much earlier than that. 21st level. Epic Wizard. Seed: Conjure with Permanent factor. = 20 cubic feet of gold coins. Oh noes, don't use them in epic spell creation, but do trade them for real coin. Apply a lengthier cast time and this spell becomes easily castable.

Or, if you don't like epic spellcasting, walk into a bar, use Gather Information to find a random rumor of a random lost vault/tomb/dungeon/etc of a long dead warrior/wizard/demon/king/etc and go and raid the place. You are 20+ level. What are a couple of skeletons going to do? Die? Oh wait...
In other words: Go on a 10th level dungeon crawl and snag the gold you need. Need more gold? do another! Run out of adventure locals? Steal the gold you need. You are 20+ level! Go plunder the vaults of great king Gullible Goodguy III, who's kingdom you have probably already saved two or three times. He won't mind. Heck, he might not even notice. (23+ ranks in Hide, move silently or greater invisibility, modify memory, etc)

Wealth by level would work fine in a cut'n'dry computer game, where pure numbers dictate what the players can do. But in a table-top game, where the players have as much freedom as the DM allows, wealth is easy if the players are persistent or creative. A Good example (not of wealth, but of precise vs Freeform style): In a game I once ran, an evil wizard, in a floating city, wanted artifact X, and threatened to attack the goodly city Y. In a straightforward game, the floating city would be a dungeon, which the players would have to explore and fight all the monsters within until they reached the Demilich at the end for a final showdown. Wanna know what really happened? They blew it up with explosives. It crashed. Demilich died. (again) The End. (Well not really, but the Demilich's plans were foiled by the use of gunpowder, fly, and Invisibility)

What I am trying to say is that as the PC characters get higher level, the methods they have for gaining wealth improve as well. By 20th level, If a character doesn't have everything money can buy, then he or she simply is not trying hard enough.

 

[zarquin]

Always epic?

That was just done because I didn't want to change the extrapolation because the attributes become Epic at different rates, but the item was more designed to show what happened at the higher end IE: past +10, instead of pre-epic.

But you have to have wealth, to account for things like disposable items and non-epic items, as several people (yourself included) have already pointed out. After 40th level, we all pretty much agree that wealth goes out the window and PCs can take whatever they want, within reason, but before that.... there's got to be something in place. UK's formulae are great for creating NPCs on the spot, or for quick-and-dirty PC creation, but if I were to make something at a level higher than 1st, I'd rather have a set amount of wealth to work with.

But by epic levels, gold should cease becomming a medium of value. Since, you could either make gold via epic spells, or using teleport, plane shift, and something like commune find a planet made entirely out of gold or probably any sort of naturaly occuring(possibly even unnaturally occuring) base material. So I think the idea of using artifacts that grow in power make more sense, because you need a non-easily duplicatable resource to have a currency, which really doesn't exist in the epic realm.

Also, I don't really need to take into account wealth for the disposable items, since you could just as easily allow a character to instead of having an epic artifact that gives an ECL/2.1 gonus to something have an artifact that gives (ECL/2.1)² levels of caster level x spell level for the purpose of duplicating spell-like effects at will, the disposable items are those that regen at some rate(possibly seconds, minutes, years, once in a life-time of the wielder, or maybe needs to be filled with the raw essence of a being atleast as powerful as a greater god to recharge). Allowing spells that are able to be used less frequently than at will to use less levels, or become more powerful.

 

[Kerrick]

That was just done because I didn't want to change the extrapolation because the attributes become Epic at different rates, but the item was more designed to show what happened at the higher end IE: past +10, instead of pre-epic.

You know.. I think technically the x10 bonus would apply to ALL the different bonuses - weapon enhancment, ability bonus, natural armor, and deflection - separately. It could be argued either way, since no such item exists, but if you applied the x10 4 times, it would be astronomically expensive at the upper end.

A Good example (not of wealth, but of precise vs Freeform style): In a game I once ran, an evil wizard, in a floating city, wanted artifact X, and threatened to attack the goodly city Y. In a straightforward game, the floating city would be a dungeon, which the players would have to explore and fight all the monsters within until they reached the Demilich at the end for a final showdown. Wanna know what really happened? They blew it up with explosives. It crashed. Demilich died. (again) The End. (Well not really, but the Demilich's plans were foiled by the use of gunpowder, fly, and Invisibility)

rofl!

What I am trying to say is that as the PC characters get higher level, the methods they have for gaining wealth improve as well. By 20th level, If a character doesn't have everything money can buy, then he or she simply is not trying hard enough.

Or the DM is limiting their access to wealth for some reason. But really... do you think a L20 PC could afford a +20 weapon? If he can, something's seriously out of whack.

But by epic levels, gold should cease becomming a medium of value.

I agree that gold itself would lose its value... it would become a trade economy, for the most part - gems, information, magic items, valuable materials (in our world, a d20-sized lump of a metal called arcanium is worth around 10,000 gp), etc. Gold is still useful, however, for things like item creation, spell research, expendable items (arrows, potions, scrolls) that you don't make yourself, paying the lackeys (I don't think the castle servants are going to accept payment in diamond dust, do you?).

Once you get past 40th, though, you've pretty well moved beyond all that - your former henchmen/apprentices/lackeys are nearing (or are) epic themselves, and they've taken over running the castle while you go planeshopping.

BUT, how would you handle item upgrades at this point? Does the DM just say, "Well, you're 45th level, let's upgrade that sword now", or can the PCs do it on their own (hey, they've got tons of gold! They can afford it!)? The former seems kind of artificial and silly ("Ooh, next level I get a feat, an ability bonus, AND a weapon upgrade! Yay!") but the latter has its inherent problems too, unless you institute a hard rule about item bonus being limited by ECL, and not just a guideline formula.