Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Kerrick]

I hate to belabor a point, but...

For non-epic wealth I have been thinking:

ECL divided by 2.1 = bonus squared x 2000
ECL divided by 1.8 = bonus squared x 1000

So you might own +10 armour (+5/+5) at 18th-level while at 21st you might have a +10 sword (+5/+5)
...

Further investigation shows that under the official rules...

You could have
A +6 shield (+6/+0) @ 23rd level
A +11 shield (+6/+5) @ 31st-level

A +6 weapon (+6/+0) @ 27th-level
A +11 weapon (+6/+5) @ 37th-level

I don't know if the Magic Item Compendium is out over there yet; we've had it here for a week or so, and I've taken a flip through it. The interesting part (and the one pertinent to this discussion) is "item levels" - basically, they give magic items "levels" based on their cost*. A item's "level" is where a PC should be receiving it, give it or take a level - so, for example, +1 armor is a L4 item, +1 weapon is L6, etc., up to +5 armor (L15), and +5 weapon (L18). This is, obviously, quite a bit different from your formula, and a bit lower even than mine (I have +6 armor at 15th and +6 weapon at 18th).


*The levels are figured by taking the starting wealth of level N and subtracting the wealth from N-1, then dividing the result by 2 and fudging the numbers a bit to make things fit. So, for example, the wealth for L3 is 2,700 gp; the wealth for L2 is 900. 2700-900= 800; 800/2 = 400. That's the high end of the range, and the low end of the range is L2-L1 (whatever that is). Anything that falls in that price range is considered a "L2 item".

There are some serious flaws with this system, however - the table caps out at 300,000 gp for L30 items, but +6 weapons are 360,000 gp, which means you won't be getting one, under those rules, until L31, or L30 if the DM's feeling generous.

 

[zarquin]

I hate to belabor a point, but...
There are some serious flaws with this system, however - the table caps out at 300,000 gp for L30 items, but +6 weapons are 360,000 gp, which means you won't be getting one, under those rules, until L31, or L30 if the DM's feeling generous.

Actually +6 armor is 360,000 gp, and becomes L31 and +6 weapons are 720,000 which makes the weapons a L41 item.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

I hate to belabor a point, but...

I don't know if the Magic Item Compendium is out over there yet;

...are you kidding, I'm still waiting for the Tome of Battle for goodness sake!

My only chance of getting up to date stuff is at Q-Con, which is around June or thereabouts. I may have a small splurge because I am a bit behind recent releases and at Q-Con if you buy three books you get the least value book free. Woohoo!

we've had it here for a week or so, and I've taken a flip through it. The interesting part (and the one pertinent to this discussion) is "item levels" - basically, they give magic items "levels" based on their cost*. A item's "level" is where a PC should be receiving it, give it or take a level - so, for example, +1 armor is a L4 item, +1 weapon is L6, etc., up to +5 armor (L15), and +5 weapon (L18). This is, obviously, quite a bit different from your formula, and a bit lower even than mine (I have +6 armor at 15th and +6 weapon at 18th).

*The levels are figured by taking the starting wealth of level N and subtracting the wealth from N-1, then dividing the result by 2 and fudging the numbers a bit to make things fit. So, for example, the wealth for L3 is 2,700 gp; the wealth for L2 is 900. 2700-900= 800; 800/2 = 400. That's the high end of the range, and the low end of the range is L2-L1 (whatever that is). Anything that falls in that price range is considered a "L2 item".

There are some serious flaws with this system, however - the table caps out at 300,000 gp for L30 items, but +6 weapons are 360,000 gp, which means you won't be getting one, under those rules, until L31, or L30 if the DM's feeling generous.

Their rules seem fine for most NPCs but look a bit low for PCs.

Still, interesting mechanic.

 

[Pssthpok]

Actually +6 armor is 360,000 gp, and becomes L31 and +6 weapons are 720,000 which makes the weapons a L41 item.

Has anyone tried playing with these figures sans that damned x10 Epic modifier?

 

[zarquin]

Has anyone tried playing with these figures sans that damned x10 Epic modifier?

I've only tried it at LOW epic, like levels 21-23, and even then you had to be lvl 21+ to use epic items.

There are 1 of 3 things that would need to be done in order to play without the multiplier.
1.) Limit wealth, this seems to be roughtly speaking what you seem most in favour of.
2.) Require Level limits on Items, this seems to roughly speaking what Krusty seems to be in favour of, through his item bonuses defined by ECL.
3.) Limit overall character levels, this seems to be what most D&D players do, IE: once you've passed maybe 20-24 you start a new character and go through the ringer again.

Becuase without the 10x multiplier a lvl 30 character at DMG listed wealth could afford:
1 suit of armor enhanced to +32 (total bonus)
1 weapon enchanted to +23 (total bonus)
6 items boosting each attribute by 12
4 items that would allow the character to be able to cast 4 9th level spells at will
and still have 130,000 gold left over.

 

[Pssthpok]

Limit wealth.
The DMG does.
Page 53: "For treasures above 20th level, use the 20th-level row and then add a number of random magic items."

Extrapolate from there, using averages.

 

[Kerrick]

Actually +6 armor is 360,000 gp, and becomes L31 and +6 weapons are 720,000 which makes the weapons a L41 item.

Good catch. I keep swapping "armor" and "weapon" for some reason.

Their rules seem fine for most NPCs but look a bit low for PCs.

Still, interesting mechanic.

Yeah, it's interesting in theory, but seriously flawed in practice. My friend just got the book, so I can actually sit and look at the tables now. Here's what we've got:

4th level: +1 armor
6th level: +1 weapon
7th level: +5 skill bonus
8th level: +2 armor, +2 stat bonus
11th level: +2 weapon
12th level: +3 armor, +10 skill bonus
14th level: +3 weapon, +4 armor, +4 stat bonus
15th level +5 armor, +15 skill bonus*
16th level: +4 weapon
17th level: +6 stat bonus, +20 skill bonus*
18th level: +5 weapon
*Depends where you put the skill bonus cap on whether or not these items can be afforded at this level; they weren't listed in the MIC.

Has anyone tried playing with these figures sans that damned x10 Epic modifier?

*raises a hand* I have...

 

[Pssthpok]

Well, specifically I mean has anyone tried assigning levels to weapons if a +6 weapon is priced at 72,000 rather than 720,000?
Weapon pricing is on crack anyway...

 

[Kerrick]

Well, specifically I mean has anyone tried assigning levels to weapons if a +6 weapon is priced at 72,000 rather than 720,000?
Weapon pricing is on crack anyway...

Yeah, I think it should be bonus^2 x 1,500 gp. But, without some kind of multiplier, it's too low, like zarquin pointed out:

+6 weapon (72K): L17
+7 weapon (98K): L18
+8 weapon (128K): L19
+9 weapon (162K): L20
+10 weapon (200K): L21

My initial point was that UK's formula (ECL/1.8) is wrong - you shouldn't be able to afford +10 armor OR weapons by L20, and trying to cram them all into 20 levels just won't work. But really, it all goes back to the wealth progression, which is wonky in the first place. Fix that, and you'll fix a lot of secondary problems, like level availability (the minimum level you can buy an item using the 1/4 wealth rule).

On a side note: Interestingly enough, the "item levels" from the MIC are off, too - they're too high. If you use the 1/4 wealth rule (can't buy a single item more than 1/4 starting wealth), you end up with:

+1 armor: L4
+1 weapon: L6
+2 armor: L7
+2 weapon: L9
+3 armor: L9
+4 armor: L11
+3 weapon: L12
+5 armor: L13
+4 weapon: L14
+5 weapon: L15

 

[poilbrun]

My initial point was that UK's formula (ECL/1.8) is wrong - you shouldn't be able to afford +10 armor OR weapons by L20, and trying to cram them all into 20 levels just won't work. But really, it all goes back to the wealth progression, which is wonky in the first place. Fix that, and you'll fix a lot of secondary problems, like level availability (the minimum level you can buy an item using the 1/4 wealth rule).

Why shouldn't you be able to afford a +10 weapon or armor by level 20? As I always understood it, core D&D 3.x was built to go up to level 20 and those items (+10 weapons or armors) are core, so should be attainable by the highest level characters. Otherwise, why put them in if no one should ever be able to get them.

IIRC, the item creator has to be of a minimum level equal to 3 times the bonus of the item, which means that a +5/+5 armor can be crafted by a level 15 character. If a level 15 character's wealth is over 200,000 gp (I don't have my books here, and I can't seem to find the wealth by level chart online), it is conceivable to see a level 15 spellcaster having a +10 armor by following the rules (both item creation and 1/4 of total wealth maximum).