Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Upper_Krust]

Hey kerrick mate!

My initial point was that UK's formula (ECL/1.8) is wrong - you shouldn't be able to afford +10 armor OR weapons by L20, and trying to cram them all into 20 levels just won't work. But really, it all goes back to the wealth progression, which is wonky in the first place. Fix that, and you'll fix a lot of secondary problems, like level availability (the minimum level you can buy an item using the 1/4 wealth rule).

Lets just back up a moment, whats this about my formula being wrong.

At 20th-level you have on average 720,000 gp according to the DMG.

Thats a ceiling limit of 180,000 GP for a single item, which EASILY qualifies you for +5/+5 armor.

...and my formula stated that you wouldn't have a +5/+5 weapon until 21st-level.

 

[Kerrick]

Why shouldn't you be able to afford a +10 weapon or armor by level 20? As I always understood it, core D&D 3.x was built to go up to level 20 and those items (+10 weapons or armors) are core, so should be attainable by the highest level characters. Otherwise, why put them in if no one should ever be able to get them.

True... I try not to be constricted by the "L20 is the highest you can go" design paradigm; for me, the sky's the limit.

IIRC, the item creator has to be of a minimum level equal to 3 times the bonus of the item, which means that a +5/+5 armor can be crafted by a level 15 character. If a level 15 character's wealth is over 200,000 gp (I don't have my books here, and I can't seem to find the wealth by level chart online)...

That's because the wealth charts aren't OGC for some reason. Starting wealth for L15 is 200K, but we're working off the 1/4 rule - a set of +5/+5 armor could be afforded by someone with >400K starting wealth.

At 20th-level you have on average 720,000 gp according to the DMG.

Thats a ceiling limit of 180,000 GP for a single item, which EASILY qualifies you for +5/+5 armor.

...and my formula stated that you wouldn't have a +5/+5 weapon until 21st-level.

760,000 gp. But, yeah... the formula's technically correct. It's just that I have issues with the core design paradigm (cramming everything into 20 levels), and I didn't state that clearly enough.

I suppose +5/+5 armor would be appropriate if you consider 20th level the absolute maximum a mortal can achieve, and after that you gain godhood or whatever, but when you're using an infinitely-scaling system, it can (and needs to be) spread out a bit more, since you're not trying to give the PCs access to everything before they hit max level - there IS no max level.


And getting back to the MIC discussion... someone in that thread in GD posted this:

There's a fascinating assumption with the item levels that I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet:

The MIC assumes that no one item a character has will be worth more than 1/8 of the character's wealth for a particular level, and recommends against going much higher for the most part. (I know, for example, there are some ENWorlders that use 1/2...) Interesting.

Apparently, according to another poster, the designers think that many small items are more useful than a few powerful ones. *shrugs* Like UK said, these guidelines work great for NPCs, but not so well for PCs.

 

[Cdawg]

Gahh! I want it I want it!!!

Hi there U_K!!! Your tireless efforts are both an inspiration and a virtue. Unfortunately us mere mortals are not so endowed with your infinite patience <_< .
First off I'll drop my own pet request and grant us (well me) some teasers or hints of your Omega template. The anti-GM indeed. I admit that I'm more intrigued by these ideas intellectually since I doubt such insane strata of power would be showing up in my campaigns (this GM brooks no challenges to his power) but insane reality altering powers gets my breeches bathed .

Next I'll be questioning you on aforementioned reality twisting capabilities...

I've toyed with a campaign idea for years that your (divinely) inspired work on deities and godhood has made vastly more realistic (and easy to perform). Its more of a reality shattering epic really. My question to you (for the sake of the unfathamable agents and artifacts that would need come to pass) is are there any powers, epic spells, or heretofore unmentioned abilities that would actually completely re-order not only what has been but what is possible? Think Kuroth's Quill on ultral steroids (in its old Book of Artifacts writeup). To put it more specifically lets say there was an artifact that for most intents and purposes re-orders reality based upon the manipulation of a higher power (an in multiverse analogy to the GM) so for example this entity could force the Bastion of Broken Souls scenario into Ghelspad, retroactively, actually altering the fabric of reality (Scarred Lands doesn't work like that Greyhawk adventure but it is introduced into existence) and rewriting history (suddenly not only has it become a situation in this reality but the heroes' history has been rewritten to have gone through that adventure and succeeded) I'm anticipating some manner of representation of this awesome power (other than GM fiat) and I absolutely love parenthesis.

My sheer excitement has made me unintelligible but we know that U_K has the effects of a comprehend languages spell always in operation

Cheers
-C

 

[Alzrius]

As long as Grimoire had rules for casting spells that affect an entire nation/continent/world/plane, and how to cast spells on something/someone from a nation/continent/world/plane away, I'll be happy.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

It seems what you are talking about is akin to altering the Akashic Library. Conceivably, an epic spell could be used to re-write reality. It would have a DC so high it would be ridiculous to mitigate.

That said, there is no one single power in the Immortal's Handbook that covers this. (so far, but U_K might throw in a last-minute change or two to the powers section) There's an Akashic Effect power that lets you demote gods, which can quickly reduce a foe's status enough so that they no longer have the Slipstream power, and thus you could just "simply" travel back in time and kill their ancestors. However, this pretty much only applies to creatures. Rewriting the rules of reality would require a lot of high-ranking divine powers. I am always a fan of taking the power that grants you an interchangeable Transient power. Take that 9 times, and the laws of physics will have no meaning to you.

 

[Cdawg]

I know its not listed yet, but isn't that what Grimoire is for?

Actually if any of you remember the Nodwick Statuette of limitations arc

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/gamespyarchive/index.php?date=2003-07-30

has an explanation of about half the desired effect. And yes altering the 'Akashic library' is probably as much on the money as possible, hence my extra interest in U_K's 'Omega' template. There is a beignm with that same power in the campaign idea. In short the epic I had in mind was conceived after Die Vecna Die was released. With the assumption in this campaign that DVD was canon, the subsequent reformation of the planes caused reality to shift and planes to appear that had heretofore been unknown. With that concept in mind the premise was that some unknown proto-deity or entity of unimaginable power guarded an artifact whose representation is a book which has recorded in it, the entirety of reality. (Or with Ascension's spin on it, The Akashic Record(s). Due to this cosmic conjunction and realignment, this demiplane, formerly sealed from all of reality (or perhaps encasing it) has now shifted within the cosmos and is causing planar destabilization. It was an unknown to all beings, man and god, and now that is has entered into the multiverse, it can be breached (but requires extreme power, artifacts etc). Cosmic beings begin to discern the nature of the destabilization and begin to trace it to this source of power. Meanwhile the guardian has been rendered powerless and inert after the cosmic cataclysm from DVD and thus the book is undefended. Powerful fiends, gods, all beings of titanic might seek to discover and penetrate this ceiled plane, and obtain the power within, ultimately taking control of the tome and ascending to ultimate and absolute mastery of the multiverse. By way of the nature of this book and the limited influence presented by even the thoughts of this inert entity it allows for extremely powerful creatures to be spawned and make their way through the multiverse (which U_K's epic bestiary oh so conveniently provided) as well as allow for high powered characters to collect powerful artifacts and elevate themselves to a playing field of massive power and fight in the big leagues for the ultimate of prizes. I'll pass on the specifics but it had always been conceived as a multiverse-wide epic with the ultimate resolution being forcing the book and demiplane back out of existence (and the characters being transformed into its eternal guardians) due to an aspect of the tome that no being realizes etc. The possibilities are endless, including the amalgamation of several campaign settings into one world for a period as a side effect. I've got an outline in my mind (and this was the vague synopsis of it) but for this concept its nearly absolute power. The concept has been out there before. Interestingly for comic fans, Alan Moore came up with a similar concept (mine was conceived independantly) of a book with reality encoded in it when he re-made Supreme, and it became something of an important cross-character story arc.

Augh I can't stop when I start rambling. Hit submit reply!!!

 

[Omeganian]

You should be careful with such spells. In Terry Goodkind's The Sword of Truth series a spell was mentioned which erased the memory of a single person from everyone's mind... It had the unpleasant side effect of eventually unravelling all of reality due to mismatches.

 

[Cdawg]

On a side note, how would Krusty represent the Statutte of limitations with his system?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there U_K!!!

Howdy Cdawg!

Your tireless efforts are both an inspiration and a virtue. Unfortunately us mere mortals are not so endowed with your infinite patience <_< .

I only have infinite procrastination.

First off I'll drop my own pet request and grant us (well me) some teasers or hints of your Omega template. The anti-GM indeed. I admit that I'm more intrigued by these ideas intellectually since I doubt such insane strata of power would be showing up in my campaigns (this GM brooks no challenges to his power) but insane reality altering powers gets my breeches bathed .

I sometimes wonder if the Omega Template really needs detailing because what it proposes is simply too powerful for mere words. However, I've teased it enough that I suppose I will have to detail at least some incarnation of it lest the wrath of various people fall upon me.

Next I'll be questioning you on aforementioned reality twisting capabilities...

I've toyed with a campaign idea for years that your (divinely) inspired work on deities and godhood has made vastly more realistic (and easy to perform).

Glad to hear I was of help.

Its more of a reality shattering epic really. My question to you (for the sake of the unfathamable agents and artifacts that would need come to pass) is are there any powers, epic spells, or heretofore unmentioned abilities that would actually completely re-order not only what has been but what is possible? Think Kuroth's Quill on ultral steroids (in its old Book of Artifacts writeup).

To put it more specifically lets say there was an artifact that for most intents and purposes re-orders reality based upon the manipulation of a higher power (an in multiverse analogy to the GM) so for example this entity could force the Bastion of Broken Souls scenario into Ghelspad, retroactively, actually altering the fabric of reality (Scarred Lands doesn't work like that Greyhawk adventure but it is introduced into existence) and rewriting history (suddenly not only has it become a situation in this reality but the heroes' history has been rewritten to have gone through that adventure and succeeded) I'm anticipating some manner of representation of this awesome power (other than GM fiat) and I absolutely love parenthesis.

The Lipika can do that.

The Throne of the Gods might be able to do something similar on a very small scale.

Certain epic spells like Logos (Unlimited Wish*) might be able to change things on the sort of scale you want.

*This latter name borrowed from Donald Miller.

My sheer excitement has made me unintelligible but we know that U_K has the effects of a comprehend languages spell always in operation

I just change reality to fit what I think you meant to say.

Cheers
-C

Anytime dude!

 

[Cdawg]

The Lipika can do that.

The Throne of the Gods might be able to do something similar on a very small scale.

Certain epic spells like Logos (Unlimited Wish*) might be able to change things on the sort of scale you want.

*This latter name borrowed from Donald Miller.

Torturous tidbits indeed!
After such a timely reply I can only be forced to do a followup.

Lipika- Where/In What will you detail it?
Throne- Sounds like a comfy place to sit. Does it act like a recliner?
L/Unlimited Wish- OMGWHERE
Donald Miller- CR!