Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Kerrick]

I have all those somewhere (although I don't possess a 1st Ed. DMG myself unfortunately).

Did the Throne have the most abilities of any artifact?

By the system I came up with, it's a greater artifact; it's near the middle of that group, powers-wise - the machine of Lum, the servant, the hand of Vecna, and the codex have more.

I'll have the Throne of the Ram in my Grimoire (those with the Bestiary will know that it is mentioned in Sandalphon's entry), I would only be guessing but I assume that is the occult artifact on which the Throne of the Gods was based.

Oh, I meant are you going to do artifacts with the minor/major powers, and drawbacks?

Part of the allure of 1e artifacts was that you couldn't make them and they were something totally new.

Of course that dynamic changes when you allow immortal (and to a lesser extent epic) PCs.

Yeah.. you've hinted before that "artifacts" are nothing more than really powerful epic items. I could see immortals making artifacts, but not mortals.

 

[Axolotl]

What happens the artifacts of a Deity when they die?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

By the system I came up with, it's a greater artifact; it's near the middle of that group, powers-wise - the machine of Lum, the servant, the hand of Vecna, and the codex have more.

Not sure I understand why the Machine, Servant and Hand would be more powerful (?) but whatever floats your boat.

I think I will have the Throne of the Ram as a Major Artifact which would be in the same tier as Pandora's Box (Greek), the Ring of the Nibelungs (Norse), the Sampa (Finnish) and a few others I have planned.

I'd like to detail maybe 20 minor, 20 moderate and 20 major artifacts in the Grimoire; thats not counting the various new armour/shield and weapon special abilities and an assortment of more 'obvious' epic items.

Most pantheons should have specific minor artifacts (Hammer of Thunderbolts = Norse) and Major Artifacts (Ring of the Nibelungs = Norse). I'll try and strike a balance between myth based artifacts and original creations.

Oh, I meant are you going to do artifacts with the minor/major powers, and drawbacks?

Indirectly yes, although I probably won't use the same nomenclature; since I am going to have minor; moderate and major artifacts.

Yeah.. you've hinted before that "artifacts" are nothing more than really powerful epic items. I could see immortals making artifacts, but not mortals.

The problem with a black and white ruling is that with infinite level progression mortals can become more powerful than immortals - since all power is relative. So I'd rather have their creation based on power rather than simply divinity.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Axolotl mate!

What happens the artifacts of a Deity when they die?

Good question. No single answer.

But there are a number of pertinent factors.

1. Artifacts are not easy to destroy.
2. Artifacts cannot be used by everyone.
3. Many artifacts are booby-trapped.

Therefore if you were to slay an evil deity on their home plane and all that remained were their artifacts, you might not be able to touch them without setting of some curse/detrimental effect. You might not be able to destroy them either. Chances are you would not be able to utilise them if you were of a differeing alignment.

What you could do is:

- Give them to subordinates (assuming they were of simlar alignment).
- Hide them or lock them away somewhere.
- Find some method of destroying them and/or absorbing their quintessence.

I think this might seem as though there should be hundreds of artifacts just laying about everywhere. But remember gods are not killed that often (unless your DM is playing them badly that is).

 

[paradox42]

Superweapon question

How much do you think an ability that allowed an artifact weapon to bypass the Cosmic String property of its target, no matter how weak the wielder is in Immortal terms, would cost, in terms of weapon bonus? That is, if this weapon kills the target, then that target is dead Dead Dead, not coming back or in an inactive state as would be normal for Cosmic String.

I'm sort of assuming the weapon would be able to bypass up to the level its actual creator is at, so a weapon like this created by an Elder One would only be able to kill Elder Ones- but the question stands as written.

I suppose you could expand this question to ask, what is the "bonus cost" for a weapon capable of negating or granting a Cosmic ability (since Cosmic String is, in fact, a basic Cosmic ability with no prereqs- easy to get as Cosmic abilities go)? Perhaps this could be tied to a cost for granting the wielder Abrogate- how much would that cost?

 

[WarDragon]

According to the table at the front of the Powers section of Ascension, Cosmic abilities are equivalent to a +36 weapon or armor power.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

How much do you think an ability that allowed an artifact weapon to bypass the Cosmic String property of its target, no matter how weak the wielder is in Immortal terms, would cost, in terms of weapon bonus? That is, if this weapon kills the target, then that target is dead Dead Dead, not coming back or in an inactive state as would be normal for Cosmic String.

I'm sort of assuming the weapon would be able to bypass up to the level its actual creator is at, so a weapon like this created by an Elder One would only be able to kill Elder Ones- but the question stands as written.

Cosmic String is a cosmic ability. Therefore it stands to reason that something which could defeat it would need to be at least cosmic.

You would still need to slay the being on its home plane though.

Otherwise you would need another property which can permanently slay deities outside their home plane. I would say that would also be a cosmic ability.

I suppose you could expand this question to ask, what is the "bonus cost" for a weapon capable of negating or granting a Cosmic ability (since Cosmic String is, in fact, a basic Cosmic ability with no prereqs- easy to get as Cosmic abilities go)? Perhaps this could be tied to a cost for granting the wielder Abrogate- how much would that cost?

Technically +36 although there may be prerequistites that would need to be factored.

Also, the fact that that armour is priced differently from weapons causes a bit of consternation.

+36 armour is equal to a +25 weapon. So I don't know if there should be different prices for defensive/attacking abilities or just a single cost.

 

[paradox42]

Interesting. Is that how you priced the abilities like Shining Nexus and Echoing? They're +25 because they're effectively equivalent to Cosmic abilities? So since Transcendents are (properly) rated at +216, that means a weapon ability essentially duplicating a Transcendent power would be +152 or +153? Omnifics would be +1296 armor, +916 weapon? If we ignore the x6 progression and use +200 and +1200 as the actual table suggests, then we get +141 for Transcendent and +848 for Omnific.

 

[Kerrick]

Not sure I understand why the Machine, Servant and Hand would be more powerful (?) but whatever floats your boat.

Oh, no - those are the way they're listed in the DMG - those items have more powers than the Throne. I never got around to assigning abilities; I got as far as listing everything in an Excel sheet and coming up with a range for number of abilities each type of artifact got. For example, a major artifact would get 1d6+1 minor and 1d6 major beneficent, 1d2 minor/major malevolent, 1d2 prime, and 1d2 drawbacks. When I posted the idea in the House Rules forum and got lousy feedback, I gave up on it.

Indirectly yes, although I probably won't use the same nomenclature; since I am going to have minor; moderate and major artifacts.

Cool. Good to see you're going with three grades instead of two. I always thought that was dumb, having only minor and major.

The problem with a black and white ruling is that with infinite level progression mortals can become more powerful than immortals - since all power is relative. So I'd rather have their creation based on power rather than simply divinity.

Right, right. Makes sense.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Interesting. Is that how you priced the abilities like Shining Nexus and Echoing? They're +25 because they're effectively equivalent to Cosmic abilities? So since Transcendents are (properly) rated at +216, that means a weapon ability essentially duplicating a Transcendent power would be +152 or +153? Omnifics would be +1296 armor, +916 weapon? If we ignore the x6 progression and use +200 and +1200 as the actual table suggests, then we get +141 for Transcendent and +848 for Omnific.

I like to keep things as simple as possible.

There are a number of different possible combinations I am looking into.

I might make it +6/+8 (weapon/armour)

+30/+40

+150/+200

+750/+1000

What do you think?