Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

Oh, no - those are the way they're listed in the DMG - those items have more powers than the Throne. I never got around to assigning abilities;

The Throne seems the definive D&D artifact, with perhaps the Codex of Infinite Planes up there as well.

I got as far as listing everything in an Excel sheet and coming up with a range for number of abilities each type of artifact got. For example, a major artifact would get 1d6+1 minor and 1d6 major beneficent, 1d2 minor/major malevolent, 1d2 prime, and 1d2 drawbacks. When I posted the idea in the House Rules forum and got lousy feedback, I gave up on it.

Sounds quick and simple enough. Though you have to wonder how many people on the House Rules forum use artifacts on a daily basis, so don't feel too bad that feedback was poor over there.

Cool. Good to see you're going with three grades instead of two. I always thought that was dumb, having only minor and major.

Of course now I have to find a name for the objects beyond artifacts.

 

[paradox42]

There are a number of different possible combinations I am looking into.

I might make it +6/+8 (weapon/armour)

+30/+40

+150/+200

+750/+1000

What do you think?

Well, the existing table and system are clearly and obviously based on the notion that a feat is worth a +1 bonus on an "item" whatever you mean by that (the armor/weapon divide does sort of screw that up). If you're sticking to that estimate, then I'd say leave it as it is, but then again I'm generally a man who likes complexity and weaves as many interlocking details into a game creation as possible. The fact that my own game doesn't use the core rules except as a base to build upon (I make changes to every single race and class among other things) is a fairly obvious manifestation of that personality quirk.

It is, however, a Good Idea to make the table explicitly show what the equivalent weapon bonus is, and what the equivalent armor bonus is- particularly since there will logically be abilities that fall in between the "base points" of Immortal ability-equivalents, like Universal Energy Blast. If the primary standard is the gold/XP cost of putting the ability into the item, then a separation of weapon from armor is definitely needed for clarity if nothing else.

The Throne seems the definive D&D artifact, with perhaps the Codex of Infinite Planes up there as well.

The Codex I might slightly agree with, but I disagree with the Throne. It's immobile, its original powers were just giving you one wish or a magic item, and it hasn't appeared in any published adventures that I'm aware of.

I'd say the most iconic D&D artifacts are probably the Hand and Eye of Vecna, minor though they may be compared to the mighty Codex (or Throne if you're so inclined). They've been in several published adventures, they've led to more "urban legend" type stories than any other D&D artifact (how many variations on the "Head of Vecna" story have you heard?), and their creator has steadily risen in the ranks of the "D&D Mythos" to becoming an actual god in 3.X.

As for why the Machine of Lum or Heward's Mystical Organ had more power slots than the Throne, I'd say it's because they were supposed to be huge, complex devices with tens or even hundreds of possible combinations of levers to press, knobs to pull, etc. It makes sense that they'd do all sorts of wacky things- if I remember correctly, they both had as many curses associated with them as beneficial powers- and what you got from activating the device was random unless you had a sequence for the power you wanted. It doesn't mean that all their powers were actually all that "powerful" as such, though certainly they were supposed to have a few that were.

Of course now I have to find a name for the objects beyond artifacts.

Of course, now we'll have to castigate you for your merciless teasing hints of this unreleased book's rules...

But in the meantime, how about Archetypes? Presumably these beyond-artifact items would be representatives of the forms from which all actual artifacts are derived?

Of course, if you mean specifically, objects beyond those that mere gods can create, objects created by the Sidereals, then I'm already calling those Cosmic Artifacts in my own game. Have been for a while, since my Epic party found themselves the Codex of the Infinite Planes (which is just such an artifact in my game- assumed to be a lot more powerful than it usually reveals and in particular, more than is revealed in the official rules). They even have more than one Cosmic Artifact now, though they know their stewardship of at least one of the items is temporary at best.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey paradox42 mate!

Well, the existing table and system are clearly and obviously based on the notion that a feat is worth a +1 bonus on an "item" whatever you mean by that (the armor/weapon divide does sort of screw that up).

It might work as:

+5/+7
+25/+35
+125/+175
+625/+875

If you're sticking to that estimate, then I'd say leave it as it is, but then again I'm generally a man who likes complexity and weaves as many interlocking details into a game creation as possible. The fact that my own game doesn't use the core rules except as a base to build upon (I make changes to every single race and class among other things) is a fairly obvious manifestation of that personality quirk.

I try to shy away from complexity as much as possible.

It is, however, a Good Idea to make the table explicitly show what the equivalent weapon bonus is, and what the equivalent armor bonus is- particularly since there will logically be abilities that fall in between the "base points" of Immortal ability-equivalents, like Universal Energy Blast. If the primary standard is the gold/XP cost of putting the ability into the item, then a separation of weapon from armor is definitely needed for clarity if nothing else.

I'll see if I can squeeze it in somewhere.

The Codex I might slightly agree with, but I disagree with the Throne. It's immobile, its original powers were just giving you one wish or a magic item, and it hasn't appeared in any published adventures that I'm aware of.

I don't mean the most iconic. I mean the most powerful.

I'd say the most iconic D&D artifacts are probably the Hand and Eye of Vecna, minor though they may be compared to the mighty Codex (or Throne if you're so inclined). They've been in several published adventures, they've led to more "urban legend" type stories than any other D&D artifact (how many variations on the "Head of Vecna" story have you heard?), and their creator has steadily risen in the ranks of the "D&D Mythos" to becoming an actual god in 3.X.

I have heard the Head of Vecna story.

As for why the Machine of Lum or Heward's Mystical Organ had more power slots than the Throne, I'd say it's because they were supposed to be huge, complex devices with tens or even hundreds of possible combinations of levers to press, knobs to pull, etc. It makes sense that they'd do all sorts of wacky things- if I remember correctly, they both had as many curses associated with them as beneficial powers- and what you got from activating the device was random unless you had a sequence for the power you wanted. It doesn't mean that all their powers were actually all that "powerful" as such, though certainly they were supposed to have a few that were.

Agreed.

Of course, now we'll have to castigate you for your merciless teasing hints of this unreleased book's rules...

But in the meantime, how about Archetypes? Presumably these beyond-artifact items would be representatives of the forms from which all actual artifacts are derived?

Maybe, I'll think about it.

Of course, if you mean specifically, objects beyond those that mere gods can create, objects created by the Sidereals, then I'm already calling those Cosmic Artifacts in my own game. Have been for a while, since my Epic party found themselves the Codex of the Infinite Planes (which is just such an artifact in my game- assumed to be a lot more powerful than it usually reveals and in particular, more than is revealed in the official rules). They even have more than one Cosmic Artifact now, though they know their stewardship of at least one of the items is temporary at best.

Cosmic Items* would be Major Artifacts.

*and that doesn't necessarily mean objects with cosmic abilities, as those could be Moderate Artifacts.

 

[paradox42]

It might work as:

+5/+7
+25/+35
+125/+175
+625/+875

You mean, use a x5 multiplier instead of x6? Certainly the numbers are easier for most people to deal with that way I suppose, but is there a balance concern with each tier of abilities being worth six of the next lower type (i.e. six feats = Divine, six Divine = Cosmic, etc.) this way? Also, going strictly by gold value derivations, a +125 weapon should be worth +176 as armor, and a +625 should be worth +883. But admittedly that does take a calculator to figure out.

Cosmic Items* would be Major Artifacts.

*and that doesn't necessarily mean objects with cosmic abilities, as those could be Moderate Artifacts.

Ah. So these items beyond artifacts would be objects seeded into the cosmos by the Supreme Being, or perhaps cleaved off the Akashic Records themselves (presumably creations of mere Time Lords would also constitute artifacts of a sort- External Artifacts perhaps). In that case I'd say the idea of Archetypes is a nearly exact fit, but the actual name is admittedly rather esoteric and inevocative for most people. It doesn't exactly scream "item of Power."

 

[shadethief]

U_K, in your system, is their a way to gain an additional artifact? I know of the cosmic power Soniferous, and a slew of divine abilities that enable you to steal/borrow powers. Ever think of maybe a cosmic power to this end, or a power that will let you steal a single artifact from a deceased opponent?

 

[dante58701]

Technically...Assimilate allows you to do just that. Since having divine artifacts is in essence equivalent to divine, cosmic, ect. abilities. You do actually gain those additional artifacts, in addition to your own. Though Im seeing a vast need for additional artifacts or a way to switch between artifacts without it counting as an action (in the case of swords and the like).

For example...my character, Aramil is equivalent to a First One. He is a god of Artifice and Divinity. He is the builder and keeper of both Artifacts and Divine Power. Though he has long ago earned Time Lord status, he has sacrificed his own Time Lord Status to remain a First One. Resultantly the other Time Lords have bestowed many gifts upon him for his sacrifice.

Essentially because he became their watch dog by choice, they throw him a bone now and again.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

You mean, use a x5 multiplier instead of x6?

Yes.

Certainly the numbers are easier for most people to deal with that way I suppose, but is there a balance concern with each tier of abilities being worth six of the next lower type (i.e. six feats = Divine, six Divine = Cosmic, etc.) this way?

The question could be "Is a magic item equal to an innate power?"

- It takes resources to create.
- It can be stolen.
- It can be destroyed.

Also, going strictly by gold value derivations, a +125 weapon should be worth +176 as armor, and a +625 should be worth +883. But admittedly that does take a calculator to figure out.

This from the guy who likes complexity remember folks.

Ah. So these items beyond artifacts would be objects seeded into the cosmos by the Supreme Being, or perhaps cleaved off the Akashic Records themselves (presumably creations of mere Time Lords would also constitute artifacts of a sort- External Artifacts perhaps).

...or they might even be non-sentient time lords.

In that case I'd say the idea of Archetypes is a nearly exact fit, but the actual name is admittedly rather esoteric and inevocative for most people. It doesn't exactly scream "item of Power." [/QUOTE]

I was thinking maybe "Archaism".

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there shadethief!

U_K, in your system, is their a way to gain an additional artifact? I know of the cosmic power Soniferous, and a slew of divine abilities that enable you to steal/borrow powers. Ever think of maybe a cosmic power to this end, or a power that will let you steal a single artifact from a deceased opponent?

Currently there isn't such a power.

You can of course use any number of non-epic items in conjunction with the limit of four epic items/artifacts.

In the entirety of 1st Ed. Deity stats (whether fron Deities & Demigods, Greyhawk Boxed Set, Forgotten Realms Boxed Set, Dragonlance Hardback or Unearthed Arcana) I think there is only one immortal who possesses more than four artifacts*.

*Tou Mu - Goddess of the North Star (D&DG Chinese Mythos)...who has 7 items (three of which could arguably be non-epic items).

If I was going to create such a power it would probably be cosmic, although its certainly not something I want to encourage - so don't expect to see one pop up in my books anytime soon.

In a thread in the General Discussion forum (in a thread about Buff spells) not so long ago I gave my opinion that limiting artifacts encourages intelligent play, just like limiting the number of weapons you carry in a game like Halo requires more thought than a game like Doom where you can carry any number of weapons.

So I think its possible you could possess more than four artifacts, but you could only have four in use at any given time.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I meant to ask, are there are specific artifacts or unique magic items you want me to cover in the Grimoire?

As well as mythological and occult items, I could always do my own versions of popular fantasy and even D&D artifacts, even though names and to a certain extent powers will be likely to change.

For instance, the Throne of the Ram could be seen as the Throne of the Gods, or the Ring of the Nibelungs could be used in place of Tolkein's one ring.

So if you have any suggestions now is the time for them.

I currently have about 2/3rds the (specific) items I want to include decided upon. So there is still room for about 20 items of varying degrees of power.

 

[Omeganian]

Krenshinibon?