Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

BUT, how would you handle item upgrades at this point? Does the DM just say, "Well, you're 45th level, let's upgrade that sword now", or can the PCs do it on their own (hey, they've got tons of gold! They can afford it!)? The former seems kind of artificial and silly ("Ooh, next level I get a feat, an ability bonus, AND a weapon upgrade! Yay!")

What you do is simply say that artifacts are merely physical extensions of a beings own inherant power. So they grow in power as the character does.

but the latter has its inherent problems too, unless you institute a hard rule about item bonus being limited by ECL, and not just a guideline formula.

I do institute such a rule.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

On the level 20 PC affording a +20 weapon: Well, look at it logically - Where will he buy it? Who would sell it? Items of Epic power are effectively artifacts. I can't recall the last time the Hand of Vecna was on an auction block. And the DM limiting a character's ability to obtain wealth is applying a meta-mechanical penalty in a role playing game. If the character has the means to get item X, and it is rolled out in the character's favor, the character should earn item X. (Now if Item X is a +9999 Sword guarded by a blind paraplegic kobold, then I think thats the DMs problem if the player becomes 'overpowered') However...

Using the wealth by city populace guide, even in the largest cities or metropolii, only non epic items less than 200k would be available. Buying a +6 sword is like buying the Sword of Kas. No one would ever sell it. And they probably wouldn't tell anyone about it. And they probably would have so many defenses against it's theft that the traps are worth more than the item itself. Heck, even if you had a magical Utopian society where ultra powerful mages were on every street, and epic magic items were available, no one would have them. The rich and super-wealthy would buy them all up.

Why would a mage make a magic item: If he is helping his fighter buddy, he probably makes one good item for him. Thats it. Its not worth it to make too much more. (xp hurts at higher levels) and if he is trying to make a profit by selling them, he is better off with making small items that cost little Xp. Need to recoup the xp spent? Kick a puppy(or Kobold) or three. If he is making an item for himself, then no one else is going to get it. Probably ever. Heck, why are the Tomes of "Inherent bonus X" even on a random treasure chart? Why would someone make them? They take wish to make, and cost MORE xp to make than it does to cash the same number of wishes! Even if they were made, they can only be used once, so unless the person they gave it to was illiterate, the book would probably be useless.

Basically, theres no market for high level magic items. A very high level (not even necessarily epic) character might not even need silly expendable items. By the time he can afford them without effort. (Example: Expensive Wand of Stoneskin) The effect is easily availible to the mage in the party, and it's effect is too weak to matter (foes will be high enough level to afford adamantine weapons, or be potent spellcasters).

Wealth by level guidelines are great for character creation. Afterwards, it's anything goes.

 

[Kerrick]

What you do is simply say that artifacts are merely physical extensions of a beings own inherant power. So they grow in power as the character does.

So you're using the term "artifact" to mean "epic magic item". That's kind of misleading, given that "artifacts" have, for 30 years, been something totally different wouldn't you say?

I do institute such a rule.

Right, but how does that work in play? Do the PCs' items just automatically increase in power as the PC gains levels, without the PC having to spend gold and time to upgrade them?

On the level 20 PC affording a +20 weapon: Well, look at it logically - Where will he buy it? Who would sell it?

Yeah, I neglected to mention that he might be able to afford it, but he wouldn't be able to buy it.

Using the wealth by city populace guide, even in the largest cities or metropolii, only non epic items less than 200k would be available.

Ignoring for the moment that their "upper limit" of 25,000 people is utterly absurd*, you're right.

*Some medieval and even pre-Christian cities had several hundred thousand or even a million people in them. Waterdeep has a milliion; so does that city in Sembia whose name escapes me, and I'm sure there are several in Eberron too. If you extrapolate an extra 100K gp item value per 25K population, you'd get around 4 million gp limit for a million people so it's entirely possible that in a place like Waterdeep, you'd be able to find a +6 weapon.

Buying a +6 sword is like buying the Sword of Kas. No one would ever sell it. And they probably wouldn't tell anyone about it.

True, it likely wouldn't ever be sold, but.. I don't know about your world, but in ours, people use their magic items. Of course, ours is a world based around war, where you use every advantage you can get, but I couldn't really see a +6 item (weapon OR armor) sitting in someone's treasury gathering dust unless: a) it's a (religious) artifact that belonged to a hero of the order; or b) it's buried with the person who used it. If I'm powerful enough to have such an item, I'd most likely be using it.

Why would a mage make a magic item: If he is helping his fighter buddy, he probably makes one good item for him. Thats it. Its not worth it to make too much more. (xp hurts at higher levels)

Don't get me started on the ridiculousness of epic pricing and XP costs for magic items. I'll just give you two links and leave it at that: Epic Item Progression (cheaper XP costs) and artificing (no XP costs).

A very high level (not even necessarily epic) character might not even need silly expendable items. By the time he can afford them without effort. (Example: Expensive Wand of Stoneskin) The effect is easily availible to the mage in the party, and it's effect is too weak to matter (foes will be high enough level to afford adamantine weapons, or be potent spellcasters).

True... they'd be buying higher-level potions (elixirs, or whatever) like potions of heal instead of potions of cure serious wounds. Lower-level potions are still handy for when the party spellcaster is out of spells, or when the party member in question is alone (cut off, scouting, whatever), but yeah... those situations would be fairly rare, which means he wouldn't have a lot of those.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

I was just checking out the art gallery when I came across an item called the Beholder Crown...now why didn't I think of that.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20070309a&page=2

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

So you're using the term "artifact" to mean "epic magic item".

Yes.

That's kind of misleading, given that "artifacts" have, for 30 years, been something totally different wouldn't you say?

There was no such thing as epic items until 5 years ago. So I don't think its that misleading.

I also flat out state the parallel in Ascension, which, IIRC, you don't have as yet.

However, that said, its a complicated matter that you would need to write a book on to fully explain it.

Right, but how does that work in play? Do the PCs' items just automatically increase in power as the PC gains levels, without the PC having to spend gold and time to upgrade them?

Thats one method (and certainly the simplest. I'll explore a few others in the Grimoire).

 

[Kerrick]

I also flat out state the parallel in Ascension, which, IIRC, you don't have as yet.

Nope.. not really interested in a book about gods and divine beings (no offense).

Originally Posted by Kerrick
Right, but how does that work in play? Do the PCs' items just automatically increase in power as the PC gains levels, without the PC having to spend gold and time to upgrade them?

Thats one method (and certainly the simplest. I'll explore a few others in the Grimoire).

It's interesting... I was reading the thread about Andy Collins' Design/Development article on the MIC, and some other folks are leaning the same way. The Book of Nine Swords (I think that was the one; it was the book that dealt with legacy items) has pretty much the same idea - you get an item and it increases in power as you do, so you don't feel the need to trade it it for something better.

I don't know if I like that idea or not; on the one hand, it makes the PCs' and DM's lives easier, because the PCs don't have to go through the trouble of spending time and gold to upgrade it, and the DM doesn't have to worry about whether or not their items are effective at a given level, and whether or not to give them better items. The DM can also make encounters for a given level based around the assumption that the group will have items of type/bonus X, and have it be reasonably balanced.

On the other hand, it takes any surprise out of the game - they know what kind of items they're going to have at a given level - and worse, they'll expect to have those items.
The formulae are great for random PC/NPC generation, but I don't think they'll work for normal play.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I've been using scaling magic items for some time now (almost a year) and I find that, asside from them being less 'simple' to explain, that they work fine. The scales I use are much slower than the Ascension scaling system and generally favor lower levels. (But since I run a lower magic setting, this works out fine)

IE: I describe magic items as magnifying their wielder's power/skill, not simply adding to them. A vorpal sword the PCs find/make might have a "+" equal to 1/4 their level. A ring of fire resistance would just flat grant immunity to fire. Good at level 1, good at level 20. Heck, one of my players wanted a magic item (a defender sword) just because it was cool, not because it would help him. (He was a minotaur with Longspear specialties; 20' reach and combat reflexes = the win) He never did get a magical longspear, though in the end he did obtain a lightning-imbued trident.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick matey!

Nope.. not really interested in a book about gods and divine beings (no offense).

Bah!

It's interesting... I was reading the thread about Andy Collins' Design/Development article on the MIC, and some other folks are leaning the same way. The Book of Nine Swords (I think that was the one; it was the book that dealt with legacy items) has pretty much the same idea - you get an item and it increases in power as you do, so you don't feel the need to trade it it for something better.

I don't know if I like that idea or not; on the one hand, it makes the PCs' and DM's lives easier, because the PCs don't have to go through the trouble of spending time and gold to upgrade it, and the DM doesn't have to worry about whether or not their items are effective at a given level, and whether or not to give them better items. The DM can also make encounters for a given level based around the assumption that the group will have items of type/bonus X, and have it be reasonably balanced.

On the other hand, it takes any surprise out of the game - they know what kind of items they're going to have at a given level - and worse, they'll expect to have those items.
The formulae are great for random PC/NPC generation, but I don't think they'll work for normal play.

I really think people need to get out of the sub-epic mindset with regards magic items, when they play in epic games. Simplicity aside, epic or immortal characters don't get new items every adventure. You don't see Elric or Thor trading in Stormbringer and Mjolnir. These items become as legendary as those who wield them. The only logical explaination for this (from a mechanical point of view) is that these items increase in power to parallel those who wield them.

Now the question might be, what about the surprise, everyone loves getting new presents magic items. I don't want to talk about this now (it'll be in grimoire), but I have a number of ideas how artifacts/epic items of other people are still relevant to the game, even if you are already possess a full compliment of epic items. You'll just have to trust me.

 

[Kerrick]

I really think people need to get out of the sub-epic mindset with regards magic items, when they play in epic games. Simplicity aside, epic or immortal characters don't get new items every adventure. You don't see Elric or Thor trading in Stormbringer and Mjolnir. These items become as legendary as those who wield them. The only logical explaination for this (from a mechanical point of view) is that these items increase in power to parallel those who wield them.

Of course they're not going to keep getting new stuff, I understand that. The things they have are going to increase in power, sure. My argument, though, is that they should do it manually, not have it done automatically for them - they should have to pay for that increase in power somehow, IMO.

 

[zarquin]

Of course they're not going to keep getting new stuff, I understand that. The things they have are going to increase in power, sure. My argument, though, is that they should do it manually, not have it done automatically for them - they should have to pay for that increase in power somehow, IMO.

They are paying for the increase in power. Through their adventures, they kill monsters/save kingdoms/etc... Due to the fact that they're now epic in power, the actual horde of a monster isn't really going to have anything that actually interests them, can be wielded by them, or is better than what they already have. They don't really have any need for most of the horde, that money however does have to go SOMEWHERE. Maybe it's consumed by the magical items and after some level of consumption, the item goes up in power. Maybe, they give the money to the kingdom that asked them to do the task, maybe they donate it to a god, maybe they use it further bolster thier own kingdom. From there, someone somewhere manages to maybe find some little technique that allows the characters to tweak just that little bit more out of their items. Maybe the items respect the characters doing these sorts of things and allow the characters to wield more of their awesome power. Since by epic levels with these artifacts they should probably be self-aware if not sentient, so it's possible that the weapon is VASTLY more powerful than it currently is, and just needs to have its power unlocked in some fashion.

Since the standard manual way is to collect a bunch of gold and get a wizard to make you the item, or maybe find it in a horde, which doesn't work at epic levels. Now you just have to be a little bit more imaginative to how the items powerup.