Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Farealmer3]

For example, the fact that we've never met a human from the future is highly suggestive that the ability to travel in time is beyond our abilities.

Very bad example, their is so many things that could effect this beyond us just not getting it.

I don't believe that Stephen Hawking would find it possible to teach an individual of 100 IQ his more intricate theories no matter how much time he had to spend with them.

Maybe, maybe not, will power and interest play roles as well.

Even if we look at the collective contribution of human intellect there is a limit. There are synergies to working together to be sure but it's not as though a workforce of ten 100 IQ people will produce results equivalent to one with an IQ of 1000.

Yes but if you got 100 100 IQ people together 1000 years ago they wouldn't come up with a computer. Yet if they had been born today they could easily go to school and learn all about them.

I thought this entire discussion was about tech by way of intelligence as a proxy.

But if Galactus has shown human level in thinking than we cannot simply say his mind and thus the things he can comprehend is beyond humanities.

Galactus' technology is so user friendly even a comparative insect like Reed Richards can use it. Just because someone can use it doesn't mean they could replicate it even by way of reverse engineering. Galactus has developed a plethora of technologies that Richards and humanity would have duplicated if he could. If Richards, and in particular Doom, could have replicated Galactus' technology they would have, believe me.

Yes, but Galactus never explains how it works to them. Has he even once sat down with Doom and Reed and attempted using simple concepts, said how his stuff functions?

See U_K's post regarding Thanos' view of Galactus' technology.

Yes but i disregard that as stupidy on the writers part, Thanos has had omnipotence twice now and not gone insane because of the power, that Galactus tech is somehow more complex than what the Infinity Guantlet or HotU gives you is insulting.

Changing gears a bit I'm going to refer to the Official Marvel Handbook from TSR circa 1980s.

This book isn't what i'd consider gospel, especially considering it's 27 years behind.

 

[historian]

I'm having quite a time convincing you Farealmer3. I'll give it one last shot.

Very bad example, their is so many things that could effect this beyond us just not getting it.

Not sure I follow.

Maybe, maybe not, will power and interest play roles as well.

No one is going to merely "will" themselves into a Unified Fields Theory, a perfect score on the MCAT, or the chief editorship of the Harvard Law Review.

That's simply not how things work.

Yes but if you got 100 100 IQ people together 1000 years ago they wouldn't come up with a computer. Yet if they had been born today they could easily go to school and learn all about them.

Sure they could learn things about them but almost without exception their potential for achievement will be relatively limited by comparison to Steve Jobs wouldn't you say.

All respect to Steve Jobs, he's no Galactus.

But if Galactus has shown human level in thinking than we cannot simply say his mind and thus the things he can comprehend is beyond humanities.

I have never ben left with the impression that Galactus is remotely "human level" in thinking. "He" is an abstract force of the universe.

He has shown the capacity for emotions however.

Yes, but Galactus never explains how it works to them. Has he even once sat down with Doom and Reed and attempted using simple concepts, said how his stuff functions?

You have me cracking up trying to picture that exchange.

You're probing an irony here. Galactus was more-less the last mortal survivor from the prior incarnation of the Universe. After eons of existence his mama put him in a cosmic incubator of sorts in the hopes he would survive.

He did, albeit in a form that was more powerful and advanced than what billions of years of evolution had generated previously.

Perhaps Galactus doesn't seek the courtship of mortals like Richards and Doom because they have nothing, by way of technology or otherwise, that they could offer him in return.

Yes but i disregard that as stupidy on the writers part

Quote from The Silver Surfer, Silver Surfer: Parable, February 1998

""And then I hear them, the sound of jet engines, gunfire, missles screaming through the night.
"I tremble for them. Galactus can decimate the mightiest force on Earth with little more than a shrug.
"But he does nothing. Silent he stands. Made invulnerable by a power beyond the ken of human comprehension."

Thanos has had omnipotence twice now and not gone insane because of the power, that Galactus tech is somehow more complex than what the Infinity Guantlet or HotU gives you is insulting.

I don't think of the IG or HOTU as tech per se but remember, that's not power innate to Thanos. It was acquired then lost. I think it's safe to say that, by virtue of the use of either artifact Thanos would be capable of generating, maintaining, and using technology that surprasses anything Galactus has or could hope to have.

Likewise, I think Galactus' tech ceiling is higher than Reed Richards, V.V. Doom, and the sum total of all humanity put together.

This book isn't what i'd consider gospel, especially considering it's 27 years behind.

Blasphemy.

Actually the stats themselves are current through about the early 1990s with all of the Dragon magazine supplements.

 

[Farealmer3]

I'm having quite a time convincing you Farealmer3.

The fact that i'am a regular at a debate forum has increased my already high stubborn score .

Not sure I follow.

Your logic is that because we have never seen visiters from the future time travel can not exist. But it could be from any numbers of reasons.

No one is going to merely "will" themselves into a Unified Fields Theory, a perfect score on the MCAT, or the chief editorship of the Harvard Law Review.

Maybe not, but they can most certainly put everything they have into learning. If one human can understand it another human with at least average intellegence can learn it. But they have to want to, unlike physical attibutes mental ones are all in your head.

I have never ben left with the impression that Galactus is remotely "human level" in thinking. "He" is an abstract force of the universe.

The very fact that he isn't a hundred steps ahead of anyone else speaks volumes on his mental limits. He has great tech, but i see no evidence that it's truely beyond everyones else's ability to learn.

You're probing an irony here. Galactus was more-less the last mortal survivor from the prior incarnation of the Universe. After eons of existence his mama put him in a cosmic incubator of sorts in the hopes he would survive.

His background is meaningless his cosmic power has no baring on our abilities to understand his tech.

Quote from The Silver Surfer, Silver Surfer: Parable, February 1998

Once again unless this has shown to be true i don't care. Statements from characters are meaningless in the comic world. They say something one second and do something totally contradictory the next. This is especially true at the cosmic level.

I don't think of the IG or HOTU as tech per se but remember

I don't think your understanding me. My point is these objects put strains and give Thanos mental abilites so far beyond Galactus that Galactus is but a microbe next to the big bang by compaison. The fact that Thanos can retain his mind with these and use them effectively shows that him not understanding Galactus's stuff to the point of not comprehending it is insulting to the very concept of Thanos and what he's done.

Likewise, I think Galactus' tech ceiling is higher than Reed Richards, V.V. Doom, and the sum total of all humanity put together.

Franklin Richards who created pocket universes and ressurected Galactus, Scarlet Witch who's manipulated things on a multiversal level, and Mad Jim Jaspers who took over a universe would disagree. Mutants are still humans. I wouldn't even say Galactus is beyond normal humans to eventually understand, let alone super ones.

 

[paradox42]

Maybe, maybe not. I think reasonable inferences can be made. For example, the fact that we've never met a human from the future is highly suggestive that the ability to travel in time is beyond our abilities.

Without commenting on the rest of the arguments being made here, I really must step in and point out that this is a fallacious argument- because, how do you know we've never had a visitor from "the" future? If said visitor is a human, why should he or she even admit to the primitives from the past that s/he isn't native to our time? How would we recognize such a visitor who was trying to hide?

Also, it's been suggested by many in the "UFO community" that the "aliens" who have ostensibly been visiting Earth for several decades, if not centuries, are actually not from another planet so much as they are from another time. This would explain, for instance, why the "grays" who show up in so many sci-fi stories (and tales of alien abduction) are humanoids who share so many features with ourselves. Most people never stop to consider the fact that having two eyes, a nose, a mouth, two arms and two legs, are not necessarily "optimal" numbers that any planet with intelligent life should be expected to evolve, but rather accidents of our own planet's evolutionary path. Thus, the fact that the "grays" are humanoids is an indicator that they are directly related to us, because the chances against truly alien beings who never shared an evolutionary path with modern humanity looking so much like us are, frankly, astronomical.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

As I see it, there are two limits on technology: The Physical Limit, and the Cognitive Limit.
I define the physical limit as the most advanced, efficient, powerful technology possible within the laws of the universe. Time travel, for instance, may not be possible due to the way the universe is structured, and therefore time travel technology would be beyond the Physical limit.

The Cognitive limit is the limit of the understanding and comprehension of technology. I doubt ancient Egyptians would be able to comprehend anything like a computer as anything less than 'Magic', but were able to build simple machines (wedges, pullies, etc) to build the pyramids. The cognitive limit basically whatever a given individual (or culture) defines as "high-technology". 100 years ago, perhaps a very accurate rifle that could shoot over a mile or a method of instantaneous communication around the globe would have seemed impossible or improbable, but we have it today; And what we see today as over the top (flying cars, Time travel, folding space, etc) might be just as common 100 years from now.

So where do these 2 come in? Eventually, (barring timelords who can overrule physical limits with their own mental limits) The Cognitive limit of technology will (if it has not already) exceed the physical limit. IE We might think time machines are possible, but in reality they may not be, and thus that technology is comprehendable but never obtainable because it is impossible.

Now, while Galactus might have the Physical Limit of technology, he could probably understand technology from beyond our universe, beyond physics. (as an example: metaphysical technology AKA Artifacts) He might not easily be able to reproduce it, but it wouldn't jump out as impossible, simply improbable. Heck, Dr. Doom could probably understand metaphysical technology, at least in principle. Doom probably wouldn't be able to tell a +6 sword from a non-magical sword, but that +6 sword, despite all tests that say they are physically the same, is somehow much sharper than the other, and he could probably accept that. Now, technology vastly beyond metaphysical technology, might be beyond both of their cognitive limits because this hypothetical tier of technology might not conform to rules, or logic, or simply be foreign in the thought processes necessary to perceive it.

 

[dante58701]

As I see it, there are two limits on technology: The Physical Limit, and the Cognitive Limit.
I define the physical limit as the most advanced, efficient, powerful technology possible within the laws of the universe. Time travel, for instance, may not be possible due to the way the universe is structured, and therefore time travel technology would be beyond the Physical limit.

The Cognitive limit is the limit of the understanding and comprehension of technology. I doubt ancient Egyptians would be able to comprehend anything like a computer as anything less than 'Magic', but were able to build simple machines (wedges, pullies, etc) to build the pyramids. The cognitive limit basically whatever a given individual (or culture) defines as "high-technology". 100 years ago, perhaps a very accurate rifle that could shoot over a mile or a method of instantaneous communication around the globe would have seemed impossible or improbable, but we have it today; And what we see today as over the top (flying cars, Time travel, folding space, etc) might be just as common 100 years from now.

So where do these 2 come in? Eventually, (barring timelords who can overrule physical limits with their own mental limits) The Cognitive limit of technology will (if it has not already) exceed the physical limit. IE We might think time machines are possible, but in reality they may not be, and thus that technology is comprehendable but never obtainable because it is impossible.

Now, while Galactus might have the Physical Limit of technology, he could probably understand technology from beyond our universe, beyond physics. (as an example: metaphysical technology AKA Artifacts) He might not easily be able to reproduce it, but it wouldn't jump out as impossible, simply improbable. Heck, Dr. Doom could probably understand metaphysical technology, at least in principle. Doom probably wouldn't be able to tell a +6 sword from a non-magical sword, but that +6 sword, despite all tests that say they are physically the same, is somehow much sharper than the other, and he could probably accept that. Now, technology vastly beyond metaphysical technology, might be beyond both of their cognitive limits because this hypothetical tier of technology might not conform to rules, or logic, or simply be foreign in the thought processes necessary to perceive it.

I definitely agree.

And back to that note on aliens. Perhaps they are not really from the future, but rather from the past. A subspecies of our primal ancestors that evolved along a vastly different path. A subspecies that continued to evolve and eventually let us behind.

Much akin to the manner in which Neanderthals differ from us, but we essentially either let them behind or butchered them. Since we aren't entirely sure which is the case.

 

[historian]

The fact that i'am a regular at a debate forum has increased my already high stubborn score .

I hear you.

He has great tech, but i see no evidence that it's truely beyond everyones else's ability to learn.

The fact that it hasn't been constructively replicated by humanity is overwhelming evidence.

You believe Reed Richards is capable of understanding all of the nuances of G's tech with some personal instruction from G and presumably a great deal of time. While I disagree, your point concedes that Richards isn't on the level with Galactus tech-wise, despite your contention that he could be. Thus, Reed's tech might somehow rival G's in time.

The problem with this is it assumes one tech level (G) is stagnant while another tech level has unlimited potential (Reed).

Let's say a guy with a 200 IQ helps a 100 IQ guy get to his "level." If the 100 IQ guy improves then so certainly can the 200 IQ guy. At what point does the 200 IQ guy leave the 100 IQ guy in the dust?

As with the foregoing, not only is G's existing tech level beyond Richards and the rest of humanity but his ceiling is much higher as well.

His background is meaningless his cosmic power has no baring on our abilities to understand his tech.

G, as a mortal, was from a society that was many technological innovations beyond the technology of Reed's society. Mix that in with primordial universal abilities/consciousness that bear on G's technology and I say it most certainly has a bearing on our abilities to understand his tech.

Once again unless this has shown to be true i don't care.

That Galactus' abilities and tech are beyond the ken of mortals has not only been stated repeatedly by numerous characters but is a logical presumption that you haven't rebutted.

You're shifting the presumption here.

I don't think your understanding me. My point is these objects put strains and give Thanos mental abilites so far beyond Galactus that Galactus is but a microbe next to the big bang by compaison.

By virtue of these objects Thanos likely was at a higher mental level than Galactus. I completely agree with you.

However, without them, he isn't. You don't have to appreciate all of the nuances of an object to effectively wield it. Thanos' understanding and ability to wield both these artifacts improved the longer he was in control of them which clearly indicates a fuller understanding that developed with time.

By the way, you aare aware that Galactus has wielded the Infinity Gems in concert aren't you? In fact, he did so after the LT ruled that they couldn't be used in conjuntion.

The fact that Thanos can retain his mind with these and use them effectively shows that him not understanding Galactus's stuff to the point of not comprehending it is insulting to the very concept of Thanos and what he's done.

Again, you don't have to completely understand something to use it. Consider a bank robber with a gun.

 

[historian]

Without commenting on the rest of the arguments being made here, I really must step in and point out that this is a fallacious argument- because, how do you know we've never had a visitor from "the" future? If said visitor is a human, why should he or she even admit to the primitives from the past that s/he isn't native to our time? How would we recognize such a visitor who was trying to hide?

Point well made. In hindsight it wasn't the best example.

Also, it's been suggested by many in the "UFO community" that the "aliens" who have ostensibly been visiting Earth for several decades, if not centuries, are actually not from another planet so much as they are from another time.

Not the "UFO community!"

Just kidding; that said, that's a highly speculative contention wouldn't you say?

Thus, the fact that the "grays" are humanoids is an indicator that they are directly related to us, because the chances against truly alien beings who never shared an evolutionary path with modern humanity looking so much like us are, frankly, astronomical.

Which indirectly supports the argument of the limits of humanity in its currently evolutionary stage.

 

[historian]

You've got a nice theory Ltheb.

Really I think the debate regarding the obtainability of tech levels boils down to two essential questions.

First, are some beings hamstrung by inherently lower cognitive limits than others?

I would certainly say so but I think Farealmer3 has been saying no technology is unobtainable with perhaps the right teacher and a lot of time.

Second, if there are effectively no cognitive limits for lower-rung beings then would they ever catch-up with higher-rung beings?

The physical limits of technology heavily bear on this question. In the Marvel Universe, as an example, I am unaware of any firm physical limits to technology.

Thus, it follows clearly that higher-rung beings should "end up" at higher levels by the time the clock stops ticking.

 

[WarDragon]

Heck, Dr. Doom could probably understand metaphysical technology, at least in principle. Doom probably wouldn't be able to tell a +6 sword from a non-magical sword, but that +6 sword, despite all tests that say they are physically the same, is somehow much sharper than the other, and he could probably accept that.

I'm not interested in getting into the debate (though I tend to agree more with historian), but I would like to point out a mistake that people make about Doom all the time. He would, in fact be able to tell that a +6 sword is magical, because he is a sorcerer himself. He just chooses to rely on technology over magic as a point of pride.