Upper_Krust said:
I had to go out earlier otherwise I would have had the reply done sooner.
No worries. I kind of forgot I posted in this topic myself for a few days there.
In a way, yes. Though I don't see all Greater Deities needing a Pantheon beneath them (obviously); I think the nominal head of a Pantheon should be clearly above and beyond the others (except in cases where there is more than one nominal ruler).
Out of curiosity, how far above them would you rank them (in terms of WotC's rankings)? Just one divine rank lower, or what? The reason I ask is that it doesn't seem like a pantheon head could be clearly "above and beyond" the others without seriously lowering the rest of the pantheon's might. That is, even if the pantheon head were a Greater deity, a group of Intermediate deities working together could still slay said Greater deity.
Indeed, Intermediate God status is a useful tool. Though individual Divine Ranks are more a waste of time than anything else.
Given your preference for a wider range of distinct levels, I can see how this "rank within level" system would annoy you, but still, given WotC, this is a step in the right direction, as it does allow, for example, a pantheon head to have more power (if only nominally) than other gods, even ones of the same rank.
WotC scaled back their Demon and Devil Lords so that people could interact with them on a non-epic (or divine) basis. While theres nothing wrong with that in itself, my own iterations pay homage to such beings rightful (and original) status.
This statement confuses me...in 1E D&D (the original for these beings) these Lords were as they are now...non-divine beings that were regarded as very powerful and unique, but not epic (in the "epic level" sense of the word). Hence why Orcus, Asmodeus, etc., were in the MM alongside the goblin and kobold and others.
Don't get me wrong, my favorite incarnation of these same beings is their 2E incarnations (the ones I was first familiar with), but their presentation in the BoVD seems to be a large look back at their origins.
That would be incongruous. You can't have gaping holes in demonic evolution (for instance).
This I disagree with, at least at the higher levels of power. If you have a demonic Greater deity, for example, you needn't then by necessity have one that is an Intermediate deity somewhere. It is incongruous at the lower echelons of power, since the bottom rungs are always what support the rest, but the higher you go, they get rarer and rarer, until its a crap shoot that any exist as X level...which doesn't mean there won't be any at the level above that.
That said, I only really want to present workable guidelines, rather than a concrete cosmos - because most DMs will have their own ideas about this anyway.
Point taken. I know I would certainly find a somewhat-generic toolkit more useful than if you went through the entire D&D cosmology and repainted it with your own brush-strokes.
I agree (though all spirits do have at worst a loose hierarchy of power, even the Slaad*), but you can't have gaping holes in such a hierarchy without feasible reasoning.
Agreed, I just think that reasoning need not be obvious. As I said, the hierarchy should have every slot filled at the lower levels, but higher up is another story...as an example...if only one Slaad Lord (say, Ygorl) ascended to become a demigod...then rose to become a Lesser god...we now have a prime example of what I meant. There is a Slaad Lesser deity around, but no demigod...and there need not be one. Below that is still Ssendam, Renbuu, Chorst, and Bazim-Gorag at their quasi-divine power level.
Of course Slaadi are not chaos incarnate, but thats a discussion for another time.
I won't comment on that for now...but you are sooo tempting me!
It was never fully explained why Demogorgon was a Lesser Deity; Lolth was an Intermediate Deity and Graz'zt was 'just a powerful demon' back in 2nd Ed.
I remember, and I still feel that that was probably the best depiction of those beings we've ever seen.
Within certain parameters yes. But I don't think divine status is one of those flexible parameters, at least not without due reason or some blurring of the edges.
Clearly Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt (among others) are on the same 'strata' with regards power. Whether this is power from glory (worshippers) or power gained through battle all amounts to the same thing.
Even though we know, for example, that Graz'zt does not want to become a god, whereas Orcus and Demogorgon certainly do want that?
That may seem, as an example, to leave Graz'zt open to being squished like some mundane flea, but given that there are plenty of other beings who are less powerful than their enemies but manage to not only survive, but vex said enemies, that would seem to indicate that that system works somehow.
So they do. Thats what they are made from.
This I disagree with. To my way of thinking, Outsiders are a blend of physical material and the substance of their plane. No divinity involved. Divine power is something else altogether that's added to the mix. Otherwise, even the lowliest of manes, for example, would have some divinity in them, which doesn't seem right.
Not necessarily, its okay to keep mortals 'in the dark' about such things, but once your PCs become hero-deities they will come to find they are yet again small fish in a large pond...how large the pond depends on the DM.
Point taken. I was using the previous example to refer to a group of level 1-20 PCs. The scale would have to be upped when PCs reach divinity themselves. What I was attempting impart was that, for my group, I'd want them to have a high sense of awe that they were about to fight a Hero-god even if the PCs were all at 20th level.
I agree up to a point, though as a general rule of thumb position and power should go hand in hand (in the Outer Planes at least).
And, as you said, I agree to a point. I'm not sure though what position you feel that Lolth and Demogorgon both had that means that their power should be similarly equated.
The only one I can think of is their mutual positions as Tanar'ri/Demon Lords. However, that seems inherently fallacious because, unlike, say, the Lords of the Nine, Demon Lord carries far less of a strict rank of power...a Demon Lord can be any Demon NPC with unique stats who has a demesne in the Abyss...beyond that, it doesn't matter if their relatively weak or a Greater Deity...not all Demon Lords are equal. That's how I viewed it at least.
In Abyssal politics power is everything, the strong seek to dominate the weak. As you yourself pose, once one has an advantage abyssal politics will shift to counter such. Were Lolth to move against Orcus; Zuggtmoy may aid him. While Demogorgon may aid Lolth; Graz'zt must step in to check Lolth/Demogorgons advantage etc. etc. But centuries of constant war have forged the current hierarchy and stalemate to the position its in today. Which is why the upper echelons are 'roughly' balanced. While monarch may still war against monarch, none have a clear advantage.
But that assumes that today's position is at such a stalement (assuming such a stalemate ever even truly occurs in the chaotic Abyss). It could still be very much in the period of "constant" war that is eliminating the weak to make room for the strong. The death of Orcus at the hands of Kiaransalee, among other incidents, would seem to be a nod towards that. And as I mentioned, the Abyss doesn't seem like it'd ever reach such a stalemate.
Likewise, just because Lolth is an Intermediate Power doesn't mean that Demogorgon cannot be.
True, but I was looking for more of a reason why he
should be, since "just because Lolth is" doesn't seem like enough of a reason.
I can't help but think such a weakness would be clearly perceived and exploited by an enemy.
I mean think about it. Does an army generally consist of a single 20th-level General leading hundreds or thousands of 1st-levelers!? Of course not, within the ranks are soldiers of variable experience the more powerful acting as Colonels; Captains; Lieutenants etc.
A good analogy, but that would seem to indicate that every race with only a single god should then have a series of beings between the leaders of that race and their deity. Do the illithids then, for example, need some "fillers" between the ulitharids (noble illithids) and Ilsensine himself?
I'll give it some thought. Thanks for the feedback mate. 
Anytime. Btw, any word on when, exactly, we'll see the Open-Sourcing of the necessary materials from the ELH and D&Dg so that the IH can finally be published? I remember you said you'd been tipped off that those books would be added to the SRD, allowing you to then publish the IH, sometime back around April. How is that coming, since the ELH barely got any material added, and none has been included from D&Dg?
, you've had a great deal more experience thinking about and playing this stuff than most of us and I'm sure you'll clearly impart that wisdom on the neophyte.
