immortals handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Dark Wolf mate!

The heirarchies and stuff is one of my main interests, although I am sure I'll modify it for my up-and-coming campaign.

Well thats your prerogative dude, I just hope you like what I've come up with.

I like the juxtaposition of Dimensional Hierarchies (sort of like cosmic Pantheons) with the Planar Hierarchies* (more akin to divine Pantheons).

*Such as the Demonium.

Not sure just how I will be refering to the Modrons and Slaad at this point since they are not OGL.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CR Greathouse mate!

I was looking over your classification of beings:

Mortal: 4
Paramortal: Disciple; Prophet; Hero-deity; Quasi-deity
Immortal: Demigod; Lesser God; Intermediate God; Greater God
Sidereal: 4
Eternal: 4
Supernal: 72

and I wondered if there's anything else you can tell us.

Theres certainly nothing I plan on 'volunteering'; but I may answer a question or two.

How are mortals divided?

Mortal: Typical; Devoted; Lay Clergy; Clergy.

Are there actual changes in stats, or do the divisions already exist in the standard rules?

For mortals its essentially a philosophical question rather than a mechanical one; though I do have some new rules tied to the above.

What makes a Time Lord a Time Lord?

...and spoil all the fun, not likely.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Not sure just how I will be refering to the Modrons and Slaad at this point since they are not OGL.

Honestly, I'd hate to see the modrons in the IH. I do prefer the 3.5 formians -- and since they're open, you could use them.

For slaadi, I really don't know.

...and spoil all the fun, not likely.

No, seriously -- game mechanics aside, what makes Time Lords different from other beings, Eternals or otherwise? It is simple to say that Eternals are to Sidereals as Sidereals are to Immortals (as Immortals are to Mortals). It's not too tough to design templates to make each more powerful than the previous level. Making them 'feel' different, though... that takes a real master.

http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly16.html

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CR Greathouse mate!

Honestly, I'd hate to see the modrons in the IH.

Well I have no plans to add any 'new' Modrons; since the totality of the race is already completely described.

However I may have some notes on their hierarchy.

The biggest complication with 3rd Edition (and 2nd) is the inclusion of the Intermediate God class. That has played havoc with various planar hierarchies. Even though I actually support the idea of distancing Pantheon heads with other 'great' gods; WotC yet again blur the lines. Although thats not the real problem; which is the stretching of various planar hierarchies.

eg. If we make, say, Demogorgon (a Demon Monarch) an Intermediate power; that means Princes become Lesser powers; Lords become Demipowers. What then exists between Balors (Hero-deities) and Lords in the Quasi-deity 'rung'.

eg. Whereas if we keep Demogorgon at Lesser Power you face other incongruities such as why is Lolth an Intermediate power (or indeed is she?)? Why hasn't a greater power seized control of the Abyss (or indeed could the demon rulers join forces and be powerful enough to expel such a threat?)?

I do prefer the 3.5 formians -- and since they're open, you could use them.

I have never been a fan of the Formians to be honest, but I suppose I could weave some magic on them.

For slaadi, I really don't know.

I may just refer to them as the 'Daals' if I include my Silver Slaad monster.

No, seriously -- game mechanics aside, what makes Time Lords different from other beings, Eternals or otherwise?

Well of course thats the challenge for me.

I think such things are better explained within the content of the IH.

It is simple to say that Eternals are to Sidereals as Sidereals are to Immortals (as Immortals are to Mortals).

It's not too tough to design templates to make each more powerful than the previous level.

Indeed.

Making them 'feel' different, though... that takes a real master.

...well I guess time will tell.

http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly16.html

Not sure of the relationship you are trying to convey between this article of Montes (which I have of course read before) and the nature of the Time Lords?

 

[CRGreathouse]

I have never been a fan of the Formians to be honest, but I suppose I could weave some magic on them.

I thank you for considering it.

Well of course thats the challenge for me.

I think such things are better explained within the content of the IH.

Well, you can't blame me for trying!

Not sure of the relationship you are trying to convey between this article of Montes (which I have of course read before) and the nature of the Time Lords?

It says what I said just above it -- play should feel different at different levels, instead of just increasing existing numbers. I was using it to pry at the Time Lords.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

I thank you for considering it.

The problem with the Formians is the almighty gap between hero-deity (Formian Queens) to the Scion Queen Mother (Intermediate Power). Not to mention should she actually be a Greater Power (if we make Demogorgon an Intermediate Power).

I want to give people the options of having the most powerful outsider races as surrogate planar pantheons in their own right.

So you could have Norse Pantheon vs. Formians; Orc Pantheon vs. Guardinals; Babylonian Pantheon vs. Demons.

Then beyond the Planar Pantheons you have the Dimensional Hierarchies which we can go into another time.

Well, you can't blame me for trying!

I thought the "No seriously" you opened with was a nice touch. Kudos for the attempt.

It says what I said just above it -- play should feel different at different levels, instead of just increasing existing numbers. I was using it to pry at the Time Lords.

Insidious, thats what it is.

Of course I could just tell you all about the Time Lords...

...but then I'd have to kill you.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The problem with the Formians is the almighty gap between hero-deity (Formian Queens) to the Scion Queen Mother (Intermediate Power). Not to mention should she actually be a Greater Power (if we make Demogorgon an Intermediate Power).

So what are you saying, we need someone with the time to come up with a bunch of high-level monsters to fill the gap?

I want to give people the options of having the most powerful outsider races as surrogate planar pantheons in their own right.

So you could have Norse Pantheon vs. Formians; Orc Pantheon vs. Guardinals; Babylonian Pantheon vs. Demons.

In a mosly-unrelated question about your Immortal Indices:

I noticed that the D&Dg version of the Pharaonic Pantheon was extremely good-biased -- only 3 out of 14 are evil, and 2 of those are demigods. (By contrast, 8 out of 23 in the D&D pantheon were evil, none of which were demigods.) Do you have a feel for the alignment bias of any of the pantheons you've worked on? Care to share? (I know you've done a lot of work with the Celtic pantheon, for example. What alignment, if any, seems to dominate?)

I thought the "No seriously" you opened with was a nice touch. Kudos for the attempt.

Hey, I thought so too. I can always try!

 

[Alzrius]

Well I have no plans to add any 'new' Modrons; since the totality of the race is already completely described.

However I may have some notes on their hierarchy.

See, that's the sort of thing that I'd really love to see in the IH. It's great to see something that doesn't feel the need to rearrange what I feel is a pretty good structure already (that is, the modron castes); rather, it just presents a new way of interpreting the differences between them.

The biggest complication with 3rd Edition (and 2nd) is the inclusion of the Intermediate God class. That has played havoc with various planar hierarchies. Even though I actually support the idea of distancing Pantheon heads with other 'great' gods; WotC yet again blur the lines.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that WotC blurred the lines because the definition of Greater Gods wasn't just that they were the pantheon heads? Otherwise, it seems that adding the Intermediate God level, and then, later, adding in divine rank, could only make the system better.

Although thats not the real problem; which is the stretching of various planar hierarchies.

eg. If we make, say, Demogorgon (a Demon Monarch) an Intermediate power; that means Princes become Lesser powers; Lords become Demipowers. What then exists between Balors (Hero-deities) and Lords in the Quasi-deity 'rung'.

My take on this is that if you don't like the "stretching" of the planar hierarchies, just don't do it. WotC themselves have seriously backed up on this one. Although the decision seemed to be as much due to them not wanting you to have to buy D&Dg or the ELH as anything else, they scaled back the various Demon and Devil Lords to the point where they aren't really gods in any sense. (Of course, then they tried to have their cake and eat it too by saying how they could still have worshippers who have divine spells.)

That said, I don't really feel that you need to occupy every rung of the ladder. The system of which planar beings hold what rank of divinity doesn't have to make obvious sense in the idea of being a set hierarchy. Demogorgon can be a lesser god (which is what 2E had him pegged as, despite having added that Intermediate God level), but that doesn't mean that all other Lords must then be demipowers by comparrison. Orcus and Graz'zt would have to have similar power, but even that is flexible. You wouldn't have to make balors Hero-deities (something I feel may be a bad idea...otherwise it sets a precedent that every tough outsider has some godliness...make divinity too ubiquitous and it quickly loses its splendor to players when they face something thats partially divine).

eg. Whereas if we keep Demogorgon at Lesser Power you face other incongruities such as why is Lolth an Intermediate power (or indeed is she?)? Why hasn't a greater power seized control of the Abyss (or indeed could the demon rulers join forces and be powerful enough to expel such a threat?)?

See, I don't think these questions even need to be asked. If Demogorgon is a Lesser Power, and Lolth is an Intermediate Power...so what? Lolth's being an Intermediate God is in no way indicative that all other Demon Monarchs must be of that same power level to be considered a Demon Monarch. Some of them are just more powerful than others. It's as simple as that.

On the question of why then, if some are so much more powerful than others, why don't those ones rule everything (say, the entire Abyss), that too is a question that seems to answer itself. There are more things than just raw combat power to consider. Politics might be one of them. What good is it to kill someone if that brings a rain of their allies down on your head? What if killing them leaves you so expended on personal might that you know that others, sensing your weakness, would attack you like a wolf pack? What if those other beings are just so insignificant as to be beneath your notice? Even Baphomet lets Pale Night, an ancient Abyssal Lord (Graz'zt's and several others' mother) live in his realm.

I just think you're analyzing the situation a bit more than is necessary. IMHO, it is enough to just say, "this is how it is" and let the situation justify itself. We don't need to have a stepping-order of increasingly powerful beings with every level represented for every hierarchy; Demogorgon doesn't need to be an Intermediate Power just because Lolth is, and there don't need to be other kinds of Formians between Formian Queens and the Scion Queen Mother.

I want to give people the options of having the most powerful outsider races as surrogate planar pantheons in their own right.

Now that's an interesting option! I'm glad it's just being billed as an option though, since, as I said before, it seems to make divine beings slightly too prolific. I know in my campaign, I'd want my players to be shocked and amazed to even meet and fight a Hero-Deity. But (assuming I run a planar campaign to some degree) that's somewhat harder to drive home when the upper echelons of most planar races begin to touch divinity.

On the subject of Slaad and Modrons, it's a real pity you can't touch upon them in your book since their closed content. On that note, have you just tried asking WotC for permission to use them? It probably won't work, but its worth a shot at least.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

So what are you saying, we need someone with the time to come up with a bunch of high-level monsters to fill the gap?

I may end up mentioning a solution in the IH, but not actually fleshing it out (possibly saving it for another occasion).

In a mosly-unrelated question about your Immortal Indices:

I noticed that the D&Dg version of the Pharaonic Pantheon was extremely good-biased -- only 3 out of 14 are evil, and 2 of those are demigods. (By contrast, 8 out of 23 in the D&D pantheon were evil, none of which were demigods.) Do you have a feel for the alignment bias of any of the pantheons you've worked on? Care to share?

I generally let racial pantheons have a slight alignment bias towards their leader.

It also depends on whether the race has a notable alignment 'bent'.

Humans tend to have a generally neutral alignment, so Humanocentric Pantheons can have gods of any alignment. Whereas elves have a generally Chaotic Good alignment so there won't be any lawful or evil elven deities within the pantheon 'proper'. Such deities may well exist but they will be renegades and miscreants.

I have also tinkered with some of the big (ten) racial pantheon alignments; and each fully opposes its racial nemesis.

Likewise I have various Human Pantheons pitted against each other, to give DMs some ideas.

I also have the Planar Pantheons better fleshed out, as well as the aforementioned Dimensional Hierarchies (Pantheons).

Finally I have some ideas for more esoteric pantheon ideas.

(I know you've done a lot of work with the Celtic pantheon, for example. What alignment, if any, seems to dominate?)

Chaotic Neutral. Though they are human so they would probably cover all alignments; though their 'interpretation' of lawful good would be more chaotic than general interpretations.

Hey, I thought so too. I can always try!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Alzrius mate!

I had to go out earlier otherwise I would have had the reply done sooner.

See, that's the sort of thing that I'd really love to see in the IH. It's great to see something that doesn't feel the need to rearrange what I feel is a pretty good structure already (that is, the modron castes); rather, it just presents a new way of interpreting the differences between them.

Glad you approve.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that WotC blurred the lines because the definition of Greater Gods wasn't just that they were the pantheon heads?

In a way, yes. Though I don't see all Greater Deities needing a Pantheon beneath them (obviously); I think the nominal head of a Pantheon should be clearly above and beyond the others (except in cases where there is more than one nominal ruler).

So I wouldn't have Thor and Odin as both Greater Deities.

Otherwise, it seems that adding the Intermediate God level, and then, later, adding in divine rank, could only make the system better.

Indeed, Intermediate God status is a useful tool. Though individual Divine Ranks are more a waste of time than anything else.

My take on this is that if you don't like the "stretching" of the planar hierarchies, just don't do it.

Unfortunately I prefer things to make sense (to me at least), and I don't like leaving loose ends.

WotC themselves have seriously backed up on this one. Although the decision seemed to be as much due to them not wanting you to have to buy D&Dg or the ELH as anything else, they scaled back the various Demon and Devil Lords to the point where they aren't really gods in any sense. (Of course, then they tried to have their cake and eat it too by saying how they could still have worshippers who have divine spells.)

WotC scaled back their Demon and Devil Lords so that people could interact with them on a non-epic (or divine) basis. While theres nothing wrong with that in itself, my own iterations pay homage to such beings rightful (and original) status.

That said, I don't really feel that you need to occupy every rung of the ladder.

That would be incongruous. You can't have gaping holes in demonic evolution (for instance).

That said, I only really want to present workable guidelines, rather than a concrete cosmos - because most DMs will have their own ideas about this anyway.

The system of which planar beings hold what rank of divinity doesn't have to make obvious sense in the idea of being a set hierarchy.

I agree (though all spirits do have at worst a loose hierarchy of power, even the Slaad*), but you can't have gaping holes in such a hierarchy without feasible reasoning.

Of course Slaadi are not chaos incarnate, but thats a discussion for another time.

Demogorgon can be a lesser god (which is what 2E had him pegged as, despite having added that Intermediate God level),

It was never fully explained why Demogorgon was a Lesser Deity; Lolth was an Intermediate Deity and Graz'zt was 'just a powerful demon' back in 2nd Ed.

but that doesn't mean that all other Lords must then be demipowers by comparrison.

I think that Monarch/Prince/Lord hierarchy is fairly well defined. I may have been among the first to parallel it to 'actual' divine power, but its a useful and worthwhile comparison. Not something I would enforce vehemently but rather as a general rule of thumb.

Orcus and Graz'zt would have to have similar power, but even that is flexible.

Within certain parameters yes. But I don't think divine status is one of those flexible parameters, at least not without due reason or some blurring of the edges.

Clearly Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt (among others) are on the same 'strata' with regards power. Whether this is power from glory (worshippers) or power gained through battle all amounts to the same thing.

You wouldn't have to make balors Hero-deities (something I feel may be a bad idea...

I haven't made Balors 'Hero-deities' per se but rather the power they hold effectively puts them on the same strata as Hero-deities.

otherwise it sets a precedent that every tough outsider has some godliness...

So they do. Thats what they are made from.

make divinity too ubiquitous and it quickly loses its splendor to players when they face something thats partially divine).

Not necessarily, its okay to keep mortals 'in the dark' about such things, but once your PCs become hero-deities they will come to find they are yet again small fish in a large pond...how large the pond depends on the DM.

See, I don't think these questions even need to be asked. If Demogorgon is a Lesser Power, and Lolth is an Intermediate Power...so what? Lolth's being an Intermediate God is in no way indicative that all other Demon Monarchs must be of that same power level to be considered a Demon Monarch. Some of them are just more powerful than others. It's as simple as that.

I agree up to a point, though as a general rule of thumb position and power should go hand in hand (in the Outer Planes at least).

On the question of why then, if some are so much more powerful than others, why don't those ones rule everything (say, the entire Abyss), that too is a question that seems to answer itself. There are more things than just raw combat power to consider. Politics might be one of them. What good is it to kill someone if that brings a rain of their allies down on your head? What if killing them leaves you so expended on personal might that you know that others, sensing your weakness, would attack you like a wolf pack? What if those other beings are just so insignificant as to be beneath your notice? Even Baphomet lets Pale Night, an ancient Abyssal Lord (Graz'zt's and several others' mother) live in his realm.

In Abyssal politics power is everything, the strong seek to dominate the weak. As you yourself pose, once one has an advantage abyssal politics will shift to counter such. Were Lolth to move against Orcus; Zuggtmoy may aid him. While Demogorgon may aid Lolth; Graz'zt must step in to check Lolth/Demogorgons advantage etc. etc. But centuries of constant war have forged the current hierarchy and stalemate to the position its in today. Which is why the upper echelons are 'roughly' balanced. While monarch may still war against monarch, none have a clear advantage.

I just think you're analyzing the situation a bit more than is necessary.

Probably, that sounds like me.

IMHO, it is enough to just say, "this is how it is" and let the situation justify itself. We don't need to have a stepping-order of increasingly powerful beings with every level represented for every hierarchy;

Any stepping order would simply represent a convenient description.

Demogorgon doesn't need to be an Intermediate Power just because Lolth is,

Likewise, just because Lolth is an Intermediate Power doesn't mean that Demogorgon cannot be.

and there don't need to be other kinds of Formians between Formian Queens and the Scion Queen Mother.

I can't help but think such a weakness would be clearly perceived and exploited by an enemy.

I mean think about it. Does an army generally consist of a single 20th-level General leading hundreds or thousands of 1st-levelers!? Of course not, within the ranks are soldiers of variable experience the more powerful acting as Colonels; Captains; Lieutenants etc.

Now that's an interesting option! I'm glad it's just being billed as an option though, since, as I said before, it seems to make divine beings slightly too prolific. I know in my campaign, I'd want my players to be shocked and amazed to even meet and fight a Hero-Deity. But (assuming I run a planar campaign to some degree) that's somewhat harder to drive home when the upper echelons of most planar races begin to touch divinity.

This is the difference between an open and closed cosmology; or even the difference between a mundane and divine campaign.

Its one thing for the party to be in awe of a hero-deity when they have barely encroached upon epic levels, but when your PCs are already demigods (or better), obviously they won't be so impressed.

On the subject of Slaad and Modrons, it's a real pity you can't touch upon them in your book since their closed content. On that note, have you just tried asking WotC for permission to use them? It probably won't work, but its worth a shot at least.

I'll give it some thought. Thanks for the feedback mate.