Implicit in the Presentation

[Wik]

Can this thread get split into the 4-5 posts that are on topic and toss everything else somewhere else? It's a neat thread premise that I'd like to explore further.

Yyup! On the plus side, this thread helped expand my ignore list, thus prettying up ENWorld for me!

To stay on topic, one that clicked for me today was the general survivability of characters in earlier editions vs. 3e/4e's (especially 4e's) insistence on characters being harder to kill - and what that meant about characters per se. I think the implicit idea in BECMI especially was for players to have multiple characters running in one campaign - just different characters for different sessions... whereas in later editions, this was not the case.

I think it's an interesting idea, with neither side being "right" or "wrong" - just different associated playstyles.

 

[Hairfoot]

I find combat runs a lot more smoothly with some kind of battlemat and tokens. I just don't want to shell out for expensive minis and Dungeon Tiles(TM)

Ah. So after all that, your criticism of 4e is that you don't like spending money. Not very relevant to the game system itself. Not at all, in fact.

You're missing my point. I don't want to discuss criticisms of games I actively dislike. Why would I want to discuss criticism of a game I do like?

I'm not missing anything. After calling everyone in the thread a "hater" for expressing even the smallest dissatisfaction with 4e, you didn't want to seem like a one-eyed fanatic, and back-pedalled by claiming that 4e does deserve criticism, except everyone in the thread but Snoweel is too emotionally invested in other, unspecified, games to know which criticisms are "valid".

Having claimed the authority of The One True Critic, you ummed, ahhed, hedged, dodged, and shouted "troll!" in order to escape the corner you'd wedged yourself into with the grandiose gambit before, in desperation, declaring that the single valid criticism of 4e is...(drum roll)...that miniatures cost too much.

Well, that's pretty devastating. All those long, rambling posts of explanation, analysis and discussion from the immature haters, and they never cottoned on that the only element of the 4e game system even remotely worthy of criticism is that the minis could be a few dollars cheaper. I am blinded by the light.

After watching that performance, it's perfectly understandable that you don't want to discuss criticism of a game you like.

Can this thread get split into the 4-5 posts that are on topic and toss everything else somewhere else? It's a neat thread premise that I'd like to explore further.

My work here is done. Please proceed.

 

[Snoweel]

Ah. So after all that, your criticism of 4e is that you don't like spending money. Not very relevant to the game system itself. Not at all, in fact.

Are you so blinded by hate you only see what you want to see?

It's a criticism of the marketing and it's separate to the criticism of the need for representative game pieces.

As it stands though, 4e plays much better with tokens of some kind and so I put up with it.

I'm not missing anything.

Then you're willfully making stuff up.

After calling everyone in the thread a "hater"

Not everyone, mostly just you. The rest of them are keeping their emotions in check.

for expressing even the smallest dissatisfaction with 4e, you didn't want to seem like a one-eyed fanatic

I don't care if I seem like a one-eyed fanatic. I've already said in this thread that I'm a 'D&D fan'. If you want to smugly tack a '-boi' on the end of that I won't complain.

and back-pedalled by claiming that 4e does deserve criticism

I don't see why I'd feel the need to backpedal. In fact, just for you I'll say that 4e is perfect and above criticism.

It doesn't change anything. You're still a hater and I'm still a fanboi.

except everyone in the thread but Snoweel is too emotionally invested in other, unspecified, games to know which criticisms are "valid".

The difference is, I'm not a hater. I like the game. That makes any criticism of mine not motivated by hate.

Having claimed the authority of The One True Critic, you ummed, ahhed, hedged, dodged, and shouted "troll!" in order to escape the corner you'd wedged yourself into with the grandiose gambit before, in desperation, declaring that the single valid criticism of 4e is...(drum roll)...that miniatures cost too much.

Well, that's pretty devastating. All those long, rambling posts of explanation, analysis and discussion from the immature haters, and they never cottoned on that the only element of the 4e game system even remotely worthy of criticism is that the minis could be a few dollars cheaper. I am blinded by the light.

After watching that performance, it's perfectly understandable that you don't want to discuss criticism of a game you like.

That's quite a hypothesis.

 

[Piratecat]

When you continued to make it personal, you got the thread closed and a free vacation. We're tremendously sick of the continued trolling. Time for it to stop.

Folks, I want to be clear: this sort of trolling and aggressive rudeness gets people suspended and banned. Please look at pages four and five of this thread, Snoweel's approach (and many peoples' responses), and then don't do that. Think of it as turning a train wreck into an object lesson.

Klunk.