Implicit in the Presentation

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It matters considering your definition of the term 'hater'.

If WotC and D&D 4e are successful then 'hater' is perfectly valid. As for nerdrage I put it to you that defending something and attacking it are two different things.


That's exactly my point. We're not haters, we're not envious of anything 4E or WotC and 4E being a heavily combat focused system is quite a rational criticism.

But it's your nerdrage that's leading you to call people a term that isn't even being used in it's proper context.

And you're not defending anything, you're attacking other people's reasons for not liking 4E.
 

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@ Chrono:

Exploration has a consequence for failure: It cost healing surges if you fail endurance checks: thus its an encounter (skill challenge). The rules are explicit about that.

How is this a perk? I don't know about you, but my favourite part of D&D has always been the idea of exploring a locale. The imagery of a party rapelling down a mineshaft into a dungeon hallway, and then lighting some torches... and then proceeding to crawl through tiny tunnels, avoiding rats tearing apart the body of a dead goblin. Each little scene leading to the players asking questions and interacting with their environment, sometimes getting small rewards, and other times getting nothing... that to me is the best part of D&D.

To sum all that up with "Okay, everyone make an endurance check as part of this skill challenge, and then there's a FIGHT!" does not make a selling point to me.

You can say "Well, GMs can ignore that if they'd like" and I certainly do. That's not the point. The point is that to make that an explicit part of the rules means that the game is explicitly suggesting a style of play that runs counter to what I believe D&D is all about. You cannot really argue that 4e is implicitly - if not explicitly - about the combats to the detriment of non-combat encounters.

While I can ignore it (and I do), it still bugs me. Especially when I buy an adventure and realize I'm mostly putting together my own encounters and only using the first few pages and setup as opposed to the actual adventure, because I realize it's a grind.

Rituals are costly, because noone should point his finger at the door before someone even tried to open it with his picklock.

You know, I'd agree with this in one way, and disagree in another. In earlier editions, if someone were able to do that, it'd cost a spell - or at least a scroll. In other words, a non-renewable resource. This didn't nerf the thief at lower levels... it provided an alternate means of moving on if the thief failed his check or wasn't present. So, it worked in older editions. But you are right that, in 4e's "a/e/u/d" set-up, it shouldn't work.

My big beef with rituals in 4e is that the feat system encourages combat choices over non-combat choices, and the utility system mostly supports combat abilities as well. Meaning that ritual use still often becomes the way of succeeding in non-combat situations. Also, I think the designers didn't go far enough with rituals... I'd love to see rituals that turn into mini skill challenges (example, speak with dead doesn't mean you speak with the dead guy... instead, it turns you into a wraith and you fly to the plane of dead and question him, all the while trying to bypass angry spirits that want to hijack your material plane body so they can finish goals they had in life).

***

One thing I find implicit about 4e is the idea of the GM creating a "Campaign path" at the start of the campaign and running it - the game encourages this play in multiple sources. To me, I think this is more in line with 2e thinking, whereas 3e was following the 1e reasoning (which was a bit looser). I don't really know if I find this change a good thing or a bad thing - I'm still completely undecided on it. I can definitely see the benefits of having a rough idea of where your campaign is going to end, that's for sure.
 
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That's exactly my point. We're not haters, we're not envious of anything 4E or WotC and 4E being a heavily combat focused system is quite a rational criticism.

You prove my point.

Why is it a "criticism" that 4e is rules heavy for combat and rules light for everything else?
 

You prove my point.

Why is it a "criticism" that 4e is rules heavy for combat and rules light for everything else?

I've already explained my "why". Because when I play the game, I don't play it for the battles. In fact (as I've already said) I gloss over battles with a -lite version of rules so I can get to the intrigues, the character developments, the roleplay.

I'm not alone in this and so 4E being so combat focused excludes me and my ilk, who honestly, could care less about extensive combat rules.
 
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You prove my point.

Why is it a "criticism" that 4e is rules heavy for combat and rules light for everything else?

What? How is it NOT a criticism? And how is he proving your point? I'm totally lost, here.

How can you honestly believe 4e is not "implicitly" combat focused? Almost all of the feats have a combat theme (and if they don't, you probably shouldn't take them). Most of the utilities are combat based. Two whole books of the core three are almost entirely about combat. Every monster in the MM is presented primarily as something to fight, and less as "somethign to encounter". And the DMG is primarily combat focused, too - look at traps, which have been generally moved into "a hazard you can face during a fight".

Yes, there is a non-combat element to 4e. I know all about it, and I enjoy it. But the game is implicitly about the fights, with no doubt about it. That may not be a bad thing, but I'd say it's pretty much a given at this point.
 

I've already explained my "why". Because when I play the game, I don't play it for the battles. In fact (as I've already said) I gloss over battles with a -lite version of rules so I can get to the intrigues, the character developments, the roleplay.

I'm not alone in this and so 4E being so combat focused excludes me and my ilk, who honestly, could care less about extensive combat rules.

The last fight I ran in 4e was actually pretty cool. There was only one PC present (it was part of a skill challenge) and when the fight broke out, I gave each player whose PC wasn't there an NPC to run, and a sub goal ("You want to make money", "You want to burn this place down", "You want to start a riot to support that imprisoned drow", and "Hey! You love bar fights, and you hate that dragonborn for some reason"). Each person in the bar fight except for one NPC and the PC were minions... but if a minion attacked another minion, I used a heavily simplified version of Savage Worlds, as opposed to anything remotely 4e.

It was pretty fun, and really sped up play.

Granted, we have some pretty fun and involved fights, for the most part. But D&D has NEVER handled large fights very well.
 

Ahh, the barfight. I love a good one but I agree, DND has never done large fights well. That's one of the main reasons I've always favoured a stripped down combat system (CMB/CMD is close to my heart).
 

I've already explained my "why". Because when I play the game, I don't play it for the battles. In fact (as I've already said) I gloss over battles with a -lite version of rules so I can get to the intrigues, the character developments, the roleplay.

So do I.

However non-combat play doesn't require detailed rules the way combat does.

However I like combat as much as any other element and I want it to be exciting (people trying to kill each other has always been an objectively exciting part of any entertainment media) which is why rules-lite combat is dissatisfying.

Rules heavy resolution of non-combat scenarios, on the other hand, just bogs down play. Just in my experience of course.

I'm not alone in this and so 4E being so combat focused excludes me and my ilk, who honestly, could care less about extensive combat rules.

Everybody has systems that are unsuitable to their style of play. However they don't all feel the need to constantly rubbish those systems in front of the people who do enjoy them.

What? How is it NOT a criticism?

It's only a criticism if combat-focused-ruleset = bad.

And how is he proving your point? I'm totally lost, here.

My point is that "It's combat focused!" is thrown around as though it stands alone as a valid criticism of the game.

I agree the game is combat focused but I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Since combat already breaks immersion, in any edition of D&D, then it deserves its own mini-game. And that mini-game may as well be balanced and exciting.

The rest of the game really doesn't need a rules-heavy treatment since it can be resolved mostly through player and DM narration

How can you honestly believe 4e is not "implicitly" combat focused?

I do believe that. I don't believe it makes 4e explicitly bad.

Almost all of the feats have a combat theme (and if they don't, you probably shouldn't take them). Most of the utilities are combat based. Two whole books of the core three are almost entirely about combat. Every monster in the MM is presented primarily as something to fight, and less as "somethign to encounter". And the DMG is primarily combat focused, too - look at traps, which have been generally moved into "a hazard you can face during a fight".

Yes, there is a non-combat element to 4e. I know all about it, and I enjoy it. But the game is implicitly about the fights, with no doubt about it. That may not be a bad thing, but I'd say it's pretty much a given at this point.

Agreed.
 

It's only a criticism if combat-focused-ruleset = bad.

Oh, I get it. We're using a different explanation of "criticism", here. I was taking the term "criticism" in the "examination" sense - a "critique" in the sense of an evaluation of both the good and bad qualities of something. You're looking at it as a "this is what's wrong with things" sort of way.

In other words, you're wrong and a fool. ;)

Ahh, the barfight. I love a good one but I agree, DND has never done large fights well. That's one of the main reasons I've always favoured a stripped down combat system (CMB/CMD is close to my heart).

The funny thing was, it wasn't the typical "D&D barfight". It was more of a "Combat that happens to take place in a seedy bar." The PCs were doing an investigation "skill challenge" and a few of my players have terminal bloodlust, so I threw in a fight when it made sense... in the middle of the skill challenge! One of the PCs was meeting his informant at a dockside bar, and then had to protect him from an assassination attempt. It was pretty wild and crazy.

Also, what is this CMB/CMD thing everyone is mentioning these days? Why am I totally lost? :)
 

The difference is, you're unwilling to accept others opinions based upon your own. I get that you like extensive combat rules and I also agree that everyone has rule systems that aren't meant for them.

So why can't you accept that mine is 4E?

I also don't agree with you that everything outside of combat doesn't need extensive rules. Although, I don't like extensive anything, I still feel that other rule systems support immersion and the feel for real world possibilities much more than 4E does (as I've also, already explain to you once).

So in this context, yes, It's too combat focused is a valid criticism because it'd bad (And can you do me a favour and savor these last two words?) FOR ME.

Also, what is this CMB/CMD thing everyone is mentioning these days? Why am I totally lost? :)

Basically it rolls up all those various combat maneuvers and squishes them into a D20 v D20 die roll.
 
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