Improved Grab and Constrict

[youspoonybard]

Hi. I'm youspoonybard. You may remember me from such hits as, "The guy that tried to Constrict too much" and other classic hits.

Seriously, though, I am told that I am constricting too much. I'm really confused and just trying to figure out how these abilities work. If I offend someone, like I apparently did last time, please, chalk it up to an honest-to-goodness innocent misinterpretation.

Any examples/clarifications/criticisms would be appreciated beyond belief.

Ok, so this is what I see happening:

Round 1:
Attacker with Improved Grab and Constrict successfully hits an opponent. Improved Grab kicks in, and for this example's sake, the attacker wins on the opposed grapple check. He then does automatic Constrict damage, and his turn ends. Attacker and Opponent are considered grappling, and Attacker has pulled Opponent into his square.

After Initial Round:
Opponent is in Attackers' mercy. Every time Attacker wins an opposed Grapple check, Opponent is taking Improved Grab and Constrict Damage. To maximize damage, use the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple technique.

Now, apparently I'm wrong...but this is how I see the rules. Can anyone help me figure out what's SUPPOSED to be going on here?

Seriously. I'm confused. I've showed the rules to my players, and they agree with me, even though it makes grappling creatures deadly as hell. So I turn to you guys for help.

 

[Nail]

I've showed the rules to my players, and they agree with me, even though it makes grappling creatures deadly as hell. So I turn to you guys for help.

I've always played it that way too. Here's the relevant section of the SRD:

Constrict (Ex): A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.

Seems pretty clear, really. A monster with Improved Grab and Constrict does both for damage on a successful grapple check.

Now, did your players want to re-think their ranks in Escape Artist?

 

[youspoonybard]

Well, when I wrote up a character who did this, I was told that I constricted too much...

 

[Nail]

In fact, the Improved Grab text is even more clear:

Improved Grab (Ex): ......(snip).... If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Sucks to be Improved Grabbed and Constricted, I guess.

 

[Nail]

Well, when I wrote up a character who did this, I was told that I constricted too much...

Well, I hate to say this, as it's just asking for trouble, but:
"I can't see what the problem is. You're fine."

 

[The Souljourner]

As long as you're not trying the "I do damage when you make grapple checks and fail" thing, then I think you're fine. Constricting grapplers do constrict + normal grapple damage (normal grapple damage is total crap for most PCs, so not a big deal).

Curious - what's your race/class levels?

-The Souljourner

 

[youspoonybard]

This is what I was writing up for review, Jeremy of Sultan's of Smack fame was nice enough to copy it over, and when the thread came back up today, it got me thinking once again:

"Ok.

I'm gonna post this here, can you guys find anything wrong with it?

3.5 Druid Squeeze-down

This build requires:
1) Monk's Belt
2) Cloak of Strength +6 (Some item that a Gargantuan snake could wear)
3) +5 inherent bonus to strength.
4) The Natural Spell Feat
5) The Improved Grapple Feat

Step 1: You're level 16! Woohoo! You have a BAB of +12! Celebrate your freedom by Wild Shaping into a Giant Constrictor Snake (MM 3.5 pg 280).

You're huge, and with your Strength setup, you have 25 (base) + 5 (inherent) + 6 (enhancement) = 36. Your type also changes to animal.

Step 2: Animal Growth - You are now Gargantuan. Your strength goes up another 8 points to 44 (+17 modifier).

Step 3: Find an unsuspecting victim. Bite him, and then use your improved grab ability. You have a 12 (BAB) + 17 (Str) + 12 (Gargantuan) + 4 Improved Grapple = +45 to your grapple check. Is it ok to assume that he's grappled?

Step 4: Next round - here's where the fun comes in. Choose to "Damage Your Opponent" - you know, the grapple maneuver where you get to make an opposed grapple check instead of an attack? Plus, your unarmed damage is increase by a) The Monk's Belt, and b) Your being gargantuan. Medium damage 1d8 -> Large -> Huge -> Gargantuan is three steps up, and looking in the DMG, your unarmed strike does 4d6 damage. So, we do 4d6 +17 attacks in an opposed grapple with bonuses of +45/+40/+35. Remember, these are opposed grapple checks: the opponent NEEDS at least a +17 modifier to get out. Can I assume that these all hit?

Of course, so far we've only managed to do nonlethal damage. That's no fun. However, we notice that the Improved Grab ability has kicked in: we have won 3 grapple checks. Normally, for a Huge Snake we'd do 1d10 + 1.5 str damage, but we're not Huge, we're Gargantuan! Thus, we do 2d8 + 25 damage off of each sucessful grapple check! We made three of those!

And that's not the end, nope. The snake also has the Constrict ability, which means, after adjustment just like before, we do another 2d8 + 25 damage off of each check!

So that means, in one round, Druid-Snake has done, if he wins all of his grapple checks:
(4d6 + 17) * 3 points of nonlethal damage (min 63, max 123, avg 93) and (4d8 + 50) * 3 points of lethal damage (min 162, max 246, avg 204)...for a total of between 225 and 369 points of the two combined. In one turn. "

 

[DM2]

Woah....hold on there, youdruidcrazybard.

Lets take a second here.

First, I'll just assume that you can indeed benefit from the monk's belt even when you don't have any limbs to make unarmed attacks with (snakes have bite and constrict...thats it), because I don't think thats the major problem here.

Second, I really don't think the intent in the improved grab description is that you do damage from the limb that made the initial attack ANY time you make a grapple check. If so, that would basically mean you deal bite damage + constrict damage even if you made an opposed grapple check to escape the grapple....or pin an opponent.

I think the point is that if you use a grapple check to damage your opponent, you'll be damaging them with the bite attack (in this case), plus constrict damage. The MM just assumes that your grapple check is to damage them with the limb that made the initial grapple attack.

Thoughts? Rebuttal?

DM2

 

[youspoonybard]

I think the Monk's Belt works fine. Every creature has a base unarmed damage rating, determined by their size (and monk levels), and I'm fully comfortable with giving them the damage-die increase with that. Unarmed striking is not striking with limbs, but with your body. But yes, that isn't the major point here.

I understand your point about the constrict and improved grab abilities, but looking on the page 310 Improved Grab ability, it says:

"If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well."

Poking this phrase apart, this is what I get out of it:
1) It does not say, "The creature can make a grapple check to do the damage..." ... it says "Each successful grapple check it makes ... automatically deals the damage ... ". This seems to mean that as long as you're rolling an opposed grapple check, you can do damage, be it with a pin, an escape, or an attack. I can visualize this; the snake has its fangs in the person, and using grapple checks to hurt the opponents is just pushing the opponent around. The snake is swinging the person around with his fangs stuck in him. Poor guy. Likewise, when the snake tries to flee a grapple (yeah, right), he flings the guy off the fangs. That's got to hurt. But flavor text aside, it seems that the damage is dealt.

The thing is, if the text says "When using opposed grapple checks to damage your opponent in a grapple, the creature does the damage listed for the weapon used to initiate the Improved Grab ability instead of its normal unarmed damage" or something to that extent, your way seems valid. I also understand the reasoning behind your case.

It just doesn't seem to be what the rules say.

All I'm reading is that "Whenever you win a grapple check, you deal damage, no matter what that grapple check was used for."

 

[DM2]

So if we take that further, what happens if the snake decides to make a grapple check to apply bite damage to the victem?

Does he automatically also do a 2nd bite + constrict because he made a grapple check? Doesn't seem much different than allowing him to do "unarmed" damage and get a free bite+constrict attached onto it.

I totally see how you are reading that from the improved grab description, but I don't think it was their intention.

Thats just a feeling though.

DM2