Improved Grab as a Free Action?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Can a purple worm that hits with its bite attack on an AoO immediately start a grapple as a free action, or can it only do that with a successful attack on its own turn?

Our group is debating whether or not it can take a free action on someone else's turn...

From the SRD:

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a purple worm must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to swallow the foe the following round.

Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required...

 

[irdeggman]

Anytime it succeeds on its bite attack it can attempt a grapple.

Think of the cleave and combat reflexes discussion and how the AoO/cleave chain can run on.

Or think of can a rogue apply sneak attack damage on an AoO? {The answer is yes as long as the conditions apply}.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Yes but Cleave specifies that you can make an "immediate" attack vs. as a free action. And sneak attack doesn't specify any type of action.

I agree that it can be done but my players are questioning it. The crux of their argument is that a free action can only be done on your turn (not sure if that's true or not) and improved grab specifies that it's a free action.

I did find this in the SRD:

Immediate Action

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are currently flat-footed.

So you could argue that since an immediate action represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action, but can still be done at any time even if it's not your turn, therefore a free action (which requires less time/effort) must also be able to be done at any time even if it's not your turn. Although of the examples of free actions, only speaking specifies that it can be done on someone else's turn...

 

[frankthedm]

This is a limitation of Grapple & Improved grab. Read strictly, you can't complete either of them on an AoO or on a "Readied action". You get the attack off, but completing the grappling routine takes a free action the grabber does not have.

Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.

That said, I've see this ignored by DMs, feeling that the special manuvers should not be stopped short by what could have been semantics issues.

 

[coyote6]

I (eventually) didn't let Improved Grab trigger off of an AoO; after allowing it, and seeing the results in play, I think it made Improved Grab too powerful (it's already stupidly powerful, really). I could never quite figure out which way the rules were supposed to work -- it seems like you could read 'em either way -- so I went with what I thought was best for my game.

Of course, there were one or two monsters -- e.g., writhing masses of tentacles -- that I let use Improved Grab on AoOs. I just considered it an ability of those monsters. It made 'em scarier, and I thought it appropriate for those critters.

So you could argue that since an immediate action represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action, but can still be done at any time even if it's not your turn, therefore a free action (which requires less time/effort) must also be able to be done at any time even if it's not your turn. Although of the examples of free actions, only speaking specifies that it can be done on someone else's turn...

That reasoning would imply that you can cast quickened spells on other people's turns.

Of course, limits on free actions are explicitly left up to the GM, so one could argue that, as written, it's kind of up to the GM.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

That reasoning would imply that you can cast quickened spells on other people's turns.

Quickened spells are swift actions and they have their own language that prohibits their use on other people's turns.

 

[frankthedm]

Quickened spells are swift actions and they have their own language that prohibits their use on other people's turns.

fine, it is what prevents you from quickdrawing on other peoples turns.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I'm not following. Improved Grab specifically states you can start a grapple as a free action. Quick Draw states you can draw as a free action but Quick Draw isn't an AoO. Improved Grab results from the AoO and leads to the grapple as a free action. Quick Draw does not specifically result from the AoO so that argument is apples and oranges.

 

[frankthedm]

I'm not following. Improved Grab specifically states you can start a grapple as a free action. Quick Draw states you can draw as a free action but Quick Draw isn't an AoO.

it is a free action so it could not be taken when taking an AoO.

Improved Grab results from the AoO and leads to the grapple as a free action. Quick Draw does not specifically result from the AoO so that argument is apples and oranges.

Nope, apple to apples and the apple is the free action, which you get on your own turn with the exception of talking. Even "ready" can only get you a single free action when not your turn.

Free Actions
Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.

Drop an Item
Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.

Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.

Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

Cease Concentration on Spell
You can stop concentrating on an active spell as a free action.

 

[Runestar]

The entry for speaking as a free action outside your turn seems to indicate that unless otherwise stated, free actions may only be taken during your turn.

So you would be able to grapple as a free action on an AoO unless that AoO occurred during your turn.