Improved Invisibility: Whats up with that???

[swrushing]

Premise: We are in a world where many opponents wont have magical resources.
Problem: Mid level mages have access to spells which can kill such beasties.
Solution: Ban such spells.

Ok sure that works, though the luist of spells which fit the mold of "allows easy kills against unprepared, save poor, limited mobility opposition when we are prepared for them" is rather LONG i would think.

Still, its simpler, easier and requires less work to go this route.

heck, against the aforementioned hill giants, i wonder why the improved invis was needed. S shield spell and their abysmal ranged attacks should make it not necessary.

Alternative approach...

Premise: We are in a world where magic is common, where even mid level mages have access to potent spells and magic items are for sale in most towns. Even hill giants can have classes!
Problem: Such non-magical, limited oppositions dies out.
Solution: Realize its not a problem and that SURVIVING hill giants have classed guys around with spells of some nature. The hill giant cleric or shaman or whatever casts dispel magic, or glitterdust, or the mob's leader has a magic item he took off some poor slep some time ago.

DND 3.0 does not start with the premise that it should be a magic vs non-magic battle. If you look at the CRs for big dumb no-magic critters, like say animals and giant vermin, you see really huge hit die per cr ratios. Even so, they are probably fodder.

The DND setting assumes access to magic for most threats. if you change that premise for your world, you gotta expect some speedbumps.

 

[DarkMaster]

I don't know why you are complaining, this is like normal life you cannot be equiped adequatly to face all the challenges that you will meet in your life(knowledge, skills, human relation, willpower and so on). You just try to find the right balance to go on with your life as are the PC. Only difference is that making an error usually results and much worse consequences.

 

[hong]

Premise: We are in a world where many opponents wont have magical resources.
Problem: Mid level mages have access to spells which can kill such beasties.
Solution: Ban such spells.

Ok sure that works, though the luist of spells which fit the mold of "allows easy kills against unprepared, save poor, limited mobility opposition when we are prepared for them" is rather LONG i would think.

Still, its simpler, easier and requires less work to go this route.

Yep. Unless you believe that D&D is supposed to be character building, I'm all for simple, easy and workable solutions.

Premise: We are in a world where magic is common, where even mid level mages have access to potent spells and magic items are for sale in most towns. Even hill giants can have classes!
Problem: Such non-magical, limited oppositions dies out.
Solution: Realize its not a problem and that SURVIVING hill giants have classed guys around with spells of some nature. The hill giant cleric or shaman or whatever casts dispel magic, or glitterdust, or the mob's leader has a magic item he took off some poor slep some time ago.

You can find a handwave for anything. However, some handwaves are better than others.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I'm starting this thread off with some scenarios to explain my intentions:

A wizard ventures into a battle with fightertype characters of his own level. His first action he uses to become 'improved invisible' as it is described in the 3.0 rules. The fightertype characters charges the square where they last saw the wizard, and he survives. The wizards next turn, he uses to levitate into the skies.
Now he is in fact invulnerable and capable of 'raining havoc' upon his enemys from the skies. The fightertype characters do not stand a chance. They can try to flee, but the wizard can choose to follow and finish the job!
-Or what about the party, who have some rounds to become powersuited, and who's wizard turns them all 'improved invisible'?
-Or the rougue, with lots of ranks in 'use magic device', who reads a scroll of 'improved invisibility' before entering the 'arena'. Now all his attacks is made as sneak attacks!

There is something sceriously wrong with this! What do you guys think, shoulden't this spell be house rouled out of the game? And by the way, it hasn't change much in the 3.5 version of 'greater invisibility'.

Aww, its not fair that a wizard with his typically paltry hit points and less than astounding AC can actually do something that the big bad fighters might have touble stoping on their own. That's why you should have your own spellcasters in a balanced party.

Let's see, without spellcasters you can have: readied actions against spellcasting, moving to a low-ceilinged area to reduce the effectiveness of levitate, taking cover, using listen to locate the wizard as he casts his next spell, moving through a doorway or other chokepoint, running away. If they are outside, scatter to reduce the effectiveness of area effect spells.

Add a spellcaster and you can add: Dispel Magic, counterspelling, area effect spells, along with, of course, see invisiblity (something my wizard is rarely without).

Nope its not easy, but where in the rules does it say it all should be easy. If the wizard did not have such spells, what kind of a chance would he have against even one fighter with more than twice the hit points, a much greater ability to strike, and usually a better AC? Is that fair? Maybe we should change fighters to have lower HP to make it more fair to the wizards.

 

[hong]

This:

Only difference is that making an error usually results and much worse consequences.

is a perfectly good reason for this:

I don't know why you are complaining

D&D at high levels is _fragile_. There's not much room for error, and one botched roll or missed shot can have massive consequences. It's entirely reasonable to want to change things so that they become less fragile.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

D&D at high levels is _fragile_. There's not much room for error, and one botched roll or missed shot can have massive consequences. It's entirely reasonable to want to change things so that they become less fragile.

At first level there is little room for error as well - one critical from an orc with a battle axe and you could be dead.

If it did not remain fragile at higher levels, the world would be dominated by high-level characters, but for some reason it isn't. Must be some kind of balance thing...

 

[hong]

At first level there is little room for error as well - one critical from an orc with a battle axe and you could be dead.

That's why I started my current game at 3rd level, and the previous one at 4th. I don't get a lot of kicks out of fighting dire rats and skeletons.

If it did not remain fragile at higher levels, the world would be dominated by high-level characters, but for some reason it isn't. Must be some kind of balance thing...

If you're really into world-building consistency and verisimilitude, improved invis is the least of your worries. D&D is simply not the game for those who are worried about this sort of thing.


Hong "don't make me pull out the seven and a half billion chickens again, people" Ooi

 

[Darklone]

At first level there is little room for error as well - one critical from an orc with a battle axe and you could be dead.

That's true till level 5.

 

[DarkMaster]

D&D at high levels is _fragile_.

Depends on the DM and D&D is _fragile_ at all level if the DM wants. A first level wizard can easily die of a single blow from a kobold, don't tell me that this is not fragile the kobold is CR1/4

Also in your example if the is able to hit the poor invisible wizard with critical attack, chances are it might kill him.

 

[Count Arioch the 28t]

Here's some rules lawyer style trickery here:

Technically, the Invisibility spells are of the Glamer subschool of the illusion school.

All illusion subschools can be disbeleived.

Therefore, if you know that the wizard is there, you get a saving throw every time the wizard does something that would indicate that something is amiss, unless of course lightening bolts rain down from the cieling indoors all the time in your world.

If you can beat the saving throw, and communicate it to your allies, they get to save at +4 bonus.

If you can prove that there is definately something there, like, say, if you were being eaten by an invisible purple worm, you don't need a save at all.

IF you rule invisibility in that way, it doesn't seem nearly so bad, that is what I do. I've switched the durations ofr invis and improved invis though, because my ruling made improved invis look actually pretty useless when you factor in that it's much easier to deal with in my game.

Note that things that are naturally invisible, such as phantom fungus and aerial servants, are not bound by that ruling.