Improved Toughness

[Buddha the DM]

Why isn't Toughness a prerequisite for Improved Toughness?

 

[demiurge1138]

Because it's not that well designed. That's actually a really good idea for both making Toughness worth taking and Improved Toughness not a no-brainer feat. I'm going to incorporate that in my game.

Demiurge out.

 

[Buddha the DM]

How would this affect the x Toughness feats from Masters of the Wild? Or should those feats just be ignored altogether?

 

[Dark Dragon]

Don't see why. If a character spends his feats to get tons of hp...so be it. He wouldn't be that good in combat and/or casting metamagiced spells.

 

[Shellman]

Why isn't Toughness a prerequisite for Improved Toughness?

Here are my thoughts,

Toughness has no prereqs and you only gain 3 HP, not a big payoff for spending a feat in my book. I can get more than that with temporary HP from a simple aid spell cast on my character and I don't have to waste a feat for 3 HP.

Improved Toughness requires a +2 Base Fort, and you get a lot more out of it as you gain HD/ levels.

In my book, Toughness as it stands should be trashed and Improved Toughness made the standard. Besides my DM giving the NPC's/ BBEG's/ or Monsters the feat, nobody in my group ever gives there characters Toughness.

 

[Gez]

IMC:

Toughness gives you +3 hp, and speads up healing (+1 hp cured per night of rest, +3 hp cured per full day of rest; and if you have fast healing or regeneration, the fast healing/regen rate gets a +1 as well). Toughness can only be taken once.

Improved Toughness has Toughness as a prereq. It can only be taken once.

The Dwarf's, Giant's, and Dragon's Toughnesses from MotW all have Toughness (and the previous Toughness in the chain) as a prereq. In addition to the normal benefit, they also spead up healing.

Here's a nifty little table to recap the benefits:

             _____________________________________________ ____________________________________________
             |     With Long-Term Care (Skill Check)      |    Without Long-Term Care (Skill Check)   |
_____________ _____________________ ______________________ ____________________ ______________________ ________________ __________________
|            |  Hit Point Damage   |     Ability Damage   | Hit Point Damage   |     Ability Damage   |  Extraordinary |     Magical     |
|____________ _____________________ ______________________ ____________________ ______________________ ________________ _________________|
| Toughness  |  Night's  Complete  |  Night's   Complete  | Night's  Complete  |  Night's   Complete  |  Fast Healing/ |  Cure   Temp HP |
| Rating:    |   Rest    Bed Rest  |    Rest    Bed Rest  |  Rest    Bed Rest  |    Rest    Bed Rest  |  Regeneration  | Spells  Spells  |
|____________ _____________________ ______________________ ____________________ ______________________ ________________ _________________|
| No rank    |  2xHD      4xHD     |     +2        +4     |  HD       2xHD     |     +1        +2     |    +0/round    |   +0      +0    |
| Toughness  | 2xHD+3    4xHD+5    |     +3        +6     | HD+1     2xHD+3    |     +1        +3     |    +1/round    |   +0      +1    |
| Dwarf's    | 2xHD+6    4xHD+10   |     +4        +8     | HD+2     2xHD+6    |     +2        +4     |    +2/round    |   +1      +2    |
| Giant's    | 2xHD+9    4xHD+15   |     +5        +10    | HD+3     2xHD+9    |     +2        +5     |    +3/round    |   +1      +3    |
| Dragon's   | 2xHD+12   4xHD+20   |     +6        +12    | HD+4     2xHD+12   |     +3        +6     |    +4/round    |   +2      +4    |
|____________ _____________________ ______________________|____________________ ______________________ ________________ _________________|

Note that the accelerated healing feat from MotW got axed.

And the recap:
TOUGHNESS [GENERAL]
Benefit: You increase your total hit point amount by 3. You heal faster, see table above for other benefit. Note that if you do not have the fast healing or regeneration extraordinary quality, you do not gain them with this feat.

IMPROVED TOUGHNESS [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Base Fortitude save +2 or better, Toughness.
Benefit: You increase your total hit point amount by a number equal to your number of Hit Dice. This stacks with the +3 given by the required feat Toughness.

DWARF'S TOUGHNESS [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Base Fortitude save +5 or better, Toughness.
Benefit: You increase your total hit point amount by 6. This stacks with the +3 given by the required feat Toughness, for a total of +9, and with Improved Toughness, for a total of 9+your HD additional hit points. You heal faster, see table above for other benefit. Note that if you do not have the fast healing or regeneration extraordinary quality, you do not gain them with this feat.

GIANT'S TOUGHNESS [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Base Fortitude save +8 or better, Toughness, Dwarf's Tougness.
Benefit: You increase your total hit point amount by 9. This stacks with the +9 given by the required feats Toughness and Dwarf's Toughness, for a total of +18, and with Improved Toughness, for a total of 18+your HD additional hit points. You heal faster, see table above for other benefit. Note that if you do not have the fast healing or regeneration extraordinary quality, you do not gain them with this feat.

DRAGON'S TOUGHNESS [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Base Fortitude save +11 or better, Toughness, Dwarf's Toughness, Giant's Toughness.
Benefit: You increase your total hit point amount by 12. This stacks with the +18 given by the required feats Toughness, Dwarf's Toughness, and Giant's Toughness, for a total of +30, and with Improved Toughness, for a total of 30+your HD additional hit points. You heal faster, see table above for other benefit. Note that if you do not have the fast healing or regeneration extraordinary quality, you do not gain them with this feat.

 

[shilsen]

In my book, Toughness as it stands should be trashed and Improved Toughness made the standard.

That's what I've done in my campaign. Even so, nobody wants to spend a feat on it.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

In my games, Toughness has no prerequisites. It gives you 2 + your HD hitpoints (combining Toughness and Improved Toughness) and increases your Massive Damage Threshold by 3.

It's a good feat. Noone in my games takes it.

 

[Lasher Dragon]

Because all the Toughness feats suck enough as it is?

 

[Greylock]

IMC...

Well that would REALLY discourage a player from taking any of the Toughness feats, making each a pre-req for the next. Every single one of the player's feats would end up going towards it. Seems a bit much to me.