D&D General In 2025 FR D&D should PCs any longer be wary of the 'evil' humanoids?

[Crimson Longinus]

That's why you don't want to make them people in the first place. And absolutely not PCs.

But they are people. Saying that people are not people has very ugly history. Making a fantasy where it is "true" is disturbing.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

But they are people.

Only because the narrative made it so (with the latest illustration in the PBH showing them as colonists on the Oregon trail, constrasted to, say, WH40k orks), and more and more so over time. Which was a path they could have chosen not to tread. I think the error was making people out of intelligent smallpox rather than having intelligent smallpox in the first place.

Saying that people are not people has very ugly history. Making a fantasy where it is "true" is disturbing.

I edited before you could answer, "what shall we do with mindflayers?"

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Only because the narrative made it so (with the latest illustration in the PBH showing them as colonist on the Oregon trail, constrasted to, say, WH40k orks), and more and more so over time. Which was a path they could have chosen not to tread.

Orcs have always been people. Tolkien's orcs are people (rather nasty people, but still,*) Warhammer orks are people.

And I'm fine with orcs in LotR being slaughtered, as it happens in context of battles where the orcs are the obvious aggressors, and in the larger context of a war. But if I think that after the War of the Ring king Aragorn rounded up the orcs on prison camps and had them exterminated, then that seems terribly wrong to me.

I edited before you could answer, "what will you do with mindflayers?"

Mindflayers are people, very dangerous people that have such a different mindset that they are hard to reason with. They are good alien foes. It is not that they are really evil, it is just threat they treat humans like we treat the animals we eat, and do not see us stupid, hive-mindless creatures as equals. But I think mass exterminating them would indeed be wrong.

 

[Charlaquin]

I would argue that your opposition is a matter of desiring contrast.

"They're Just Always Evil, get over it" is a rejection of contrast. But by that same token, "they're all Beautiful Individuals Who Must Be Individually Judged" also takes out contrast.

Having Lolthsworn Drow who are people with moral choice but still chose to be evil, is greater nuance than a world where nobody ever chooses to do things we consider wrong unless coerced or manipulated. Sometimes, some people choose to be evil even when they didn't have to be. And a few of the people in that society will be folks who haven't found a way to escape yet, and that makes for a good story, trying to help the few good souls escape the prison of societal evil they're locked in, not so they can abandon everything about what they were, but so they can join a different group of their own people who aren't like that WITHOUT being just like us.

I’d say that’s an accurate assessment, yes.

 

[Waller]

Oh god. Here we go again. A new day, a new 50-page argument about evil orcs.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Orcs have always been people. Tolkien's orcs are people

Not sure about that. They seemed to carry an initial taint that is impossible to overcome. The films had Saruman create them in vats, I suppose to emphasize their alien character further.

And I'm fine with orcs in LotR being slaughtered, as it happens in context of battles where the orcs are the obvious aggressors,

Which doesn't make it right. Killing people in self-defence, why not, but slaughtering enemies, even in the context of war, is a war crime. We never see orc prisonners in the Silmarillion (despite numerous mentions of Melkor taking hordes of prisonners from Men and Elves). It may be a narrative ellipse, it might be that they just slaughter them. It would be coherent with the overall behaviour of Elves, who aren't especially fond of other species.

and in the larger context of a war. But if I think that after the War of the Ring king Aragorn rounded up the orcs on prison camps and had them exterminated, then that seems terribly wrong to me.

I am not familiar with the notes related to post-LotR events, but the One Ring Wiki states that : "Following the destruction of the One Ring, the Orcs scattered, eventually dwindling and being hunted to extinction (or near-extinction levels) in the Fourth Age."

It might be their interpretation, but it sounds like a bona fide genocide if they are people.

Mindflayers are people, very dangerous people that have such a different mindset that they are hard to reason with. They are good alien foes. It is not that they are really evil, it is just threat they treat humans like we treat the animals we eat, and do not see us stupid, hive-mindless creatures as equals. But I think mass exterminating them would indeed be wrong.

I think they don't make good "easy to kill" enemies either. They are just behaving with humans the way we behave with food.

 

[Charlaquin]

At least in 4e, illithids can essentially "go vegan" and eat the products of a form of moss. That they choose to kill people instead indicates they are evil. I am willing to accept an illithid trying to change; I am not willing to accept an illithid that I am supposed to instantaneously pity without a demonstration on their part that they are, in fact, trying to be different or have actually behaved differently.

Personally, I prefer my Illithids as alien terraformers. Their physiology is not natively suited to survival in the prime material plane, having evolved in and adapted to the environment of the far realm. The tadpole is the actual creature, and the fully cerromorphed mind flayer is its enviro-suit. The fact that they have to parisitize sapient beings to create a suitable environment for their needs is not an act of malice, but the result is still harmful, and makes their existence on the material plane incompatible with the wellbeing of its native inhabitants.

Of course, they are also actively seeking to colonize the material plane, so I’d still count that as evil. But again, it’s evil of action, not of nature.

 

[Laurefindel]

Here's the thing. Having a world where people are treated like smallpox is messed up. You can come up with any fantasy justification for it, but if it is rational and good to round up orcs in concentration camps and send them to gas chambers, that is not a world I want to be playing in.

Yeah, I’m with you there.

But I do wonder where the line is though. Are aberrations. like mind-flayers for example, people? What about dragons? Demons? Anything with an Int score above that of animals?

I mean, saying demons aren’t people because they’re made of evil stuff from another plane and that’s just the way it is, isn’t much better than saying that drows aren’t people because they’re made of evil stuff cursed by a god and elevated by another evil goddess, and not much more convincing either. And then you get to the point where if demons aren’t evil, than what is?

We could say that «demon» is the name that planar beings take if they happen to be evil, but do we really want to go down the road where your physical appearance changes according to the «nobility of your soul»?

So ultimately I just throw it all in the air and forget about good or evil altogether, basically saying to my players «I will telegraph whether the person/creature in front of you is an enemy or not».

[edit] I see that the conversation had the time to evolved significantly during my phone call that prevented me to send the post…

 

[Scribe]

Mindflayers are people, very dangerous people that have such a different mindset that they are hard to reason with.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Personally, I prefer my Illithids as Allen terraformers. Their physiology is not natively suited to survival in the prime material plane, having evolved in and adapted to the environment of the far realm. The tadpole is the actual creature, and the fully cerromorphed mind flayer is its enviro-suit. The fact that they have to parisitize sapient beings to create a suitable environment for their needs is not an act of malice, but the result is still harmful, and makes their existence on the material plane incompatible with the wellbeing of its native inhabitants.

Of course, they are also actively seeking to colonize the material plane, so I’d still count that as evil. But again, it’s evil of action, not of nature.

Seems like kind of hair-splitting to call that evil of action, given the brain-eating and parasitization of sapient beings when they are themselves sapient beings like, how could they ever not be evil? Dexter-style? I guess a small number of could argue that they "only eat bad people"? But I'm pretty sure Dexter is evil in this sense, just sorta helpful. I guess you could theoretically have one who was trying to find a way out of this cycle? But given their attack tactics, the only reasonable response to them is "kill on sight". Maybe you could negotiate from a distance with a magical telegraph or semaphore or something?