D&D General In 2025 FR D&D should PCs any longer be wary of the 'evil' humanoids?

[Crimson Longinus]

Not sure about that. They seemed to carry an initial taint that is impossible to overcome. The films had Saruman create them in vats, I suppose to emphasize their alien character further.

Again, it doesn't matter. You're constantly Thermian explaining this. Like how you don't get it? Saying that people seeming people are not people does not make it OK!

Which doesn't make it right. Killing people in self-defence, why not, but slaughtering enemies, even in the context of war, is a war crime.

In a war it is mostly self defence and defence of others. And I don't expect standards of modern Geneva conventions from medieval war either.

We never see orc prisonners in the Silmarillion (despite numerous mentions of Melkor taking hordes of prisonners from Men and Elves). It may be a narrative ellipse, it might be that they just slaughter them. It would be coherent with the overall behaviour of Elves, who aren't especially fond of other species.

And the elves in Silmarillion in a lot of ways are not nice people.

I am not familiar with the notes related to post-LotR events, but the One Ring Wiki states that : "Following the destruction of the One Ring, the Orcs scattered, eventually dwindling and being hunted to extinction (or near-extinction levels) in the Fourth Age."

It might be their interpretation, but it sounds like a bona fide genocide if they are people.

Which is messed up. I don't remember whether that is mentioned in the book proper or just in the appendices (I think it is the latter,) but if we take it at face value, it casts Aragorn in rather negative light.

I think they don't make good "easy to kill" enemies either. They are just behaving with humans the way we behave with food.

And if they want to eat my brains and I'd rather keep them, it is somewhat unlikely that we reach an amicable compromise on the matter. Like sure, they might be just grabbing a burger, but I wouldn't blame the cow for fighting back!

 

[Charlaquin]

Seems like kind of hair-splitting to call that evil of action, given the brain-eating and parasitization of sapient beings when they are themselves sapient beings like, how could they ever not be evil? Dexter-style? I guess a small number of could argue that they "only eat bad people"? But I'm pretty sure Dexter is evil in this sense, just sorta helpful. I guess you could theoretically have one who was trying to find a way out of this cycle? But given their attack tactics, the only reasonable response to them is "kill on sight". Maybe you could negotiate from a distance with a magical telegraph or semaphore or something?

I mean, yeah, in that setup I don’t think peaceful coexistence with Illithids is possible, at least not on the material plane. An Illithid trying to be good would be an Illithid not participating in the colonization of the material plane.

I also like the idea that it’s really the Elder Brains driving this colonization attempt. If the Illithids could be freed from the Elder Brains’ influence, they might be more amenable to returning to their home plane in peace.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If it was a stand alone change in a singular setting, sure fine.

Bleeding into the wider 'standard D&D' view on the ancestry? Well that actually proves my point in another thread.

Yes, the old ways/content/canon still existed, but engage with the modern player on what a Tiefling is? "Oh yeah its this, says right here." and the old way is forgotten.

Thankfully, SCAG saved us.

Even as a hardline tiefling bard player (you know it lol) I have to say, 4E's Bael Turath deal was interesting enough that it almost almost negated the "one appearance" thing. I do praise SCAG for saving us in 5E though I curse core 5E for continuing the one appearance thing without any reason to.

The greatest anti-tiefling crime in all of D&D history remains 3E, which:

1) Made Tieflings +1 LA without giving them anything worth +1 LA. Ooooh 1/day Darkness and +5 Cold/Electricity/Fire resist, wow that's definitely as powerful as as entire level and not at all kinda worse than PHB races...

2) Made their stat adjustments be, and this is not, repeat not, a typo: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma

That's right, a Charisma penalty. For Tieflings. What's next, a DEX penalty for elves?

2E Tieflings had: +1 INT, +1 CHA; -1 STR, -1 WIS

Which was much more appropriate, and made this change even more bizarre.

 

[Necropolitan]

I mean, yeah, in that setup I don’t think peaceful coexistence with Illithids is possible, at least not on the material plane. An Illithid trying to be good would be an Illithid not participating in the colonization of the material plane.

Illithids existing on the material plane isn't colonization, it's the fact they're trying to take over and enslave people that makes it colonization.

Otherwise all immigration would be colonization.

And if you by the backstory for them that they're an evolution of humans from the future then they're just as native to the material plane as anyone else, they're instead colonizing the past.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

And if you by the backstory for them that they're an evolution of humans from the future

I mean, it's just about the most implausible possible backstory given their lifecycle so I don't think that's worth considering lol.

 

[Necropolitan]

I mean, it's just about the most implausible possible backstory given their lifecycle so I don't think that's worth considering lol.

It makes sense that they'd need humanoid (preferably human) hosts for their tadpoles if they were originally human.

Not like there are a lot of humanoids for them to infect in the Far Realm.

 

[SkidAce]

Yeah, that's the opposite of "more interesting" to me, and IMO was clearly done for marketing reasons primarily. I much preferred the original conception of tieflings from Planescape back in 2e, and I've always thought of the heritage that way.

I use both.

Whispering fiends and devils are rumored to have been the beginning of the downfall of the Wenharian Empire.

And random demons, loths, devils, and etc, associating with mortals for various reasons.

I also still use cambions.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Yeah, I’m with you there.

But I do wonder where the line is though. Are aberrations like mind flayer people? Dragons? Demons? Anything with an Int score above that of animals?

That's the problem. If we try to apply our modern sensitivies to the game, we can't behave toward people we meet the way adventurers are usually expected to behave. We either can have opponents that aren't people (so we can classify them as KoS) or we can renounce our values and accept that we don't take prisonners. Often in my game where the enemy is 90% destroyed and it's a minor fight, we fade to black one or two round earlier. "After your victory over the gnomeish assassins" and we get to avoid the elephant in the room: that if there is no row of gnomish prisonners following the heroes, it's probably because they slaughtered them.

I mean, saying demons aren’t people because they’re made of evil stuff from another plane and that’s just the way it is, isn’t much better than saying that drows aren’t people because they’re made of evil stuff cursed by a god and elevated by another evil goddess, and not much more convincing. And then you get to the point where if demons aren’t evil, than what is?

It's exactly the same argument for demon than for any other species. If you make them people, you can't slaughter them. You'd think the books would keep demons as insufferable evil, but the narrative make them... possible of not being evil. The plot of Descent in Avernus requires Zariel to be a fallen angel (so angels can choose to be evil), and there is an opportunity for her to be redeemed, so demons can choose to be good. They may be created something, but they seem to be capable of free will, which makes them dangerously close to people.

 

[Charlaquin]

Illithids existing on the material plane isn't colonization, it's the fact they're trying to take over and enslave people that makes it colonization.

Otherwise all immigration would be colonization.

Well, in the take on them I described, they can’t survive on the material plane without a cerromorphed sapient being to wear like a space suit. So, nonviolent immigration is impractical for them. Maybe you could arrange some sort of… volunteer host system? But even that would be pretty ethically dubious IMO.

And if you by the backstory for them that they're an evolution of humans from the future then they're just as native to the material plane as anyone else, they're instead colonizing the past.

That’s not the backstory I use for them.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It makes sense that they'd need humanoid (preferably human) hosts for their tadpoles if they were originally human.

It doesn't make sense that they'd be tadpoles though lol nor that Elder Brains would exist, nor a million other things.

There's this extremely lame tendency in fantasy and some sci-fi to make it so literally every race "were human" at some point in the past/future, and this is always supposed to be some shocking revelation or "makes you think" but it's always the dumbest stuff possible lol. And I don't care which sci-fi series heard that and felt bad because of it lol!