D&D General In defence of Grognardism

[GreyLord]

Another reason for those who LIKE the older versions of D&D....

They actually think the RULES ARE BETTER.

This can apply to old AND new players...not just those who have nostalgia.

A prime example...

HG Wells LIttle Wars was written DECADES before I even existed, and yet, I LOVE the rules. They are simplistic and yet elegant rules for running miniature games of all sorts. They are better than MANY of the modern miniature wargames that have been created and it's a shame that not as many play it.

Now...I had no prior experience with these rules before I learned of them later in life. I had played many wargames before that...so it wasn't really nostalgia that drove me. It wasn't because it was comfortable or I loved history, it had nothing to do with children or elders respecting each other. I knew the more "modern" wargames and I enjoyed the older rules better.

Sometimes, one just likes what they like...no nostalgia or other things needed.

I don't buy your defences on Grognardism because they are not really defences at all, just explaining what your opinion or idea of why Grognards feel the way they do (and ironically, Grognard used to be a term wargamers would say could NEVER apply to strict RPG gamers as it was a wargaming term...).

And on that note, the only thing to defend about Grognardism is experience (hopefully) in that they are the older guys who have seen a bit more than the younger guys...it's not about nostalgia, it's about experiences in life and hobby.

Sometimes that experience talks wisdom...and sometimes it's just foolishness.

 

[Shardstone]

Probably the most boomer-related TTRPG thing I've ever read tbh.

 

[GuyBoy]

Point 5 is very interesting to me. I grew up during the Cold War here in the US. I never thought about how D&D was part of our soft power. Games I played at the time certainly were: Recon, Twilight: 2000, but... yeah. That is a take I've never heard as an American.

It was a tough concept to phrase (and I’m not sure I got it right) and it was certainly before soft power was a “thing” in terms of active political influence ( I highly recommend Joseph Nye on this topic), but I was trying to get across a perspective of how pervasive US culture became in UK during the Cold War to young people in a positive way.
And there were always more Fords on the road than Ladas, Clarkson notwithstanding!

 

[DemoMonkey]

Everything old is bad! Only what is new is good!

...wait, did I get that backwards?

 

[GuyBoy]

I'm not sure that this defends grognardism at all, or that maintaining the things that work is an aspect of grognardism. In my experience, the opposite is more common. Plenty of new players want to keep the parts of traditional/"classic" D&D that work, but want to get rid of the parts that they think are harmful (whether that be alignment, racial ASIs, or similar examples).

So, yeah, I don't think that this is a part of grognardism, and thus not defending it.

Nostalgia is a reason (probably the main one) for grognardism, but it's not a defense for it. Explanations and excuses are two very different things. You can explain why something exists without supporting the existence of that thing (like how people can explain how certain awful historical events happened without supporting those events). Reason =/= excuse, and thus this is not a defense of grognardism (at least, not a valid one).

Plenty of newer players care about and learn the history of D&D. They just don't idolize it as much as grognards tend to (in my experience, at least). You can be a history geek without loving/fantasizing about the part of history that happened. This is very much tied to nostalgia and "the grass is always greener on the other side".

Again, not a defense of grognardism.

I'm also not sure how this is a defense of grognardism. I'm not sure that what you're describing is a good thing, and thus not a reason to support/defend grognardism.

Inevitability is not a valid excuse/reason to support/defend something. We're all going to die, it's inevitable, but that's no excuse for going around murdering everyone you can, because "they just were gonna die anyway!"

Again, not a defense for grognardism.

Several fair points; on reflection perhaps I mis-titled the thread and should have gone for “a possible explanation of Grognardism.” This might have been better for the stream of consciousness stuff.
That said, I think your argument about inevitably not justifying murder (which is undisputedly true) is a somewhat extreme rebuttal of my point about the ineviof older generations moaning about younger generations.

 

[Helpful NPC Thom]

Grognardism is good for the same reason that historical preservation societies are good. 3d6 down the line, if you please.

 

[TheSword]

I'm not sure that this defends grognardism at all, or that maintaining the things that work is an aspect of grognardism. In my experience, the opposite is more common. Plenty of new players want to keep the parts of traditional/"classic" D&D that work, but want to get rid of the parts that they think are harmful (whether that be alignment, racial ASIs, or similar examples).

So, yeah, I don't think that this is a part of grognardism, and thus not defending it.

Nostalgia is a reason (probably the main one) for grognardism, but it's not a defense for it. Explanations and excuses are two very different things. You can explain why something exists without supporting the existence of that thing (like how people can explain how certain awful historical events happened without supporting those events). Reason =/= excuse, and thus this is not a defense of grognardism (at least, not a valid one).

Plenty of newer players care about and learn the history of D&D. They just don't idolize it as much as grognards tend to (in my experience, at least). You can be a history geek without loving/fantasizing about the part of history that happened. This is very much tied to nostalgia and "the grass is always greener on the other side".

Again, not a defense of grognardism.

I'm also not sure how this is a defense of grognardism. I'm not sure that what you're describing is a good thing, and thus not a reason to support/defend grognardism.

Inevitability is not a valid excuse/reason to support/defend something. We're all going to die, it's inevitable, but that's no excuse for going around murdering everyone you can, because "they just were gonna die anyway!"

Again, not a defense for grognardism.

You’re taking the word ‘defense’ literally. Instead read it as an explanation for Grognardism. I see this as 5 reasons to explain to whippersnappers why Grognards might feel the way they do. I doubt the Grogs give two figs as to whether you think they are right or not so whether you think these are good enough reasons doesn’t matter. They’re not trying to recruit you… though you will of course inevitably join their number in the fullness of time.

I think nostalgia is by far the most powerful motivator for me. That and a love of history. History of the game as much as history of world. The more superhero/sci-if elements that have thrived in the modern game have zero interest to me. Instead the things that resonate most with me: the Enemy Within, The Dalelands, Birthright Darksun, Planescape, Ravenloft, Undermountain, Myth Drannor, Menzoberranzan, are all rooted in either history or nostalgia. For me no new setting WOC releases or has released in the past 5 years will ever be as good for me as these. It doesn’t matter what they do. It just will never be as good for me. I don’t care that it’s illogical and it doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy new things, just that they won’t resonate like the old things I enjoyed as a kid/young adult do.

 

[toucanbuzz]

Grognard (dictionary): someone who enjoys playing older editions of RPGs/war games when newer are available. From French for "grumbler."

My bit: There's 2 types of grognards.

1. The "quiet" grognard who likes older edition material and doesn't need to convince others to like what they like.
2. The "grumbler" who feels no one else gets why older editions have better parts and needs to convince them, sometimes by complaining rather than explaining.

Younger or newer players of D&D can be grognards. It has nothing to with relative age. Some people like the sound of an 8-Track or Record compared to digital music.

For the OP:

Nostalgia and culture at the time you played an edition aren't technically "defenses" but rather how you felt at a particular time based on your age and environment. It had nothing to do with whether an edition was older or newer.

History can be a solid defense if molded around the argument older editions have more interesting, detailed, and fulfilling material, such as settings, articles in Dungeon/Dragon magazines, and so on. One could argue there is a benefit to seeing how the game was to appreciate how it is. Once one can compare how it was to how it is, one can decide if they want to implement facets from older editions.

So, if I had to defend being a "grumbler," it would be from a historical take. People can justify their belief why it's better listening to Pink Floyd on a record rather than another medium. Same applies to older editions. Doesn't mean you're right or wrong. You're just explaining you.

 

[Malmuria]

4 Talking of US culture; soft power. It may not be as obvious to actual US citizens, but to Grognards from the UK it matters. Those of us who played 1E are, by definition, children f the Cold War and the soft power of the US was pervasive at the time; buying in to D&D was like buying in to Levi’s, skateboards and McDonalds; it mattered. For any doubters, I’d refer to a Russian friend of my own age who told me “the day McDonalds opened in Moscow, we knew we had lost the Cold War.”

"Dnd players are key to winning the cold war." - Ronald Reagan, probably

 

[GuyBoy]

Grognard (dictionary): someone who enjoys playing older editions of RPGs/war games when newer are available. From French for "grumbler."

My bit: There's 2 types of grognards.

1. The "quiet" grognard who likes older edition material and doesn't need to convince others to like what they like.
2. The "grumbler" who feels no one else gets why older editions have better parts and needs to convince them, sometimes by complaining rather than explaining.

Younger or newer players of D&D can be grognards. It has nothing to with relative age. Some people like the sound of an 8-Track or Record compared to digital music.

For the OP:

Nostalgia and culture at the time you played an edition aren't technically "defenses" but rather how you felt at a particular time based on your age and environment. It had nothing to do with whether an edition was older or newer.

History can be a solid defense if molded around the argument older editions have more interesting, detailed, and fulfilling material, such as settings, articles in Dungeon/Dragon magazines, and so on. One could argue there is a benefit to seeing how the game was to appreciate how it is. Once one can compare how it was to how it is, one can decide if they want to implement facets from older editions.

So, if I had to defend being a "grumbler," it would be from a historical take. People can justify their belief why it's better listening to Pink Floyd on a record rather than another medium. Same applies to older editions. Doesn't mean you're right or wrong. You're just explaining you.

Thank you for this. I’d definitely consider myself a Type 1 grognard by your definition.
Absolutely agree that my original post wasn’t technically a “defence”. I was being a bit loose with the word. Perhaps “explanation” or “reasons for” would have been better.
I think I was just raising a debate about the grognard concept as being about moaning and I thank you for expressing it better than me.

I guess maybe I was also still a bit sore about the damage Ernie Gygax et al did to how older gamers are often perceived. It was certainly interesting ( in a sad way) that at least one respondent chose to use “boomer” in a pejorative manner as part of their response.