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In defense of 4E

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Pre-4E combat for us could get very static. Characters had few ways to move an enemy and little incentive to do anything but take a full round attack action. Any movement beyond a 5 square adjust ...
5-foot adjust, I think you mean; or 1 square in 4e terms
Haltherrion said:
... meant you got only one attack that round instead of your n-attacks at higher levels. This mechanic even introduced a noticeable change in combat as PCs leveled, got their extra attacks and stopped moving around much on the battlefield so they could use those attacks.
Hard-coding attacks of opportunity into the rules also really discouraged in-combat movement, I found, as it just became too dangerous.

Lan-"static combat is just fine, as long as I'm winning"-efan
 

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There's one enormous one that's been missed off. Ease of DMing. The thought of DMing 3.X again makes a number of experienced DMs I know want to cry. And I know at least one who DMs 3.5 who treats it as BECMI behind the screen. 4e on the other hand is almost as easy as BECMI when you are familiar with it, plus has a lot more tools to support a DM; a very varied set of monster manuals (that are IMO more evocative than the 2e Monster Manual; I'm unlikely to be using random lairs and so the %liar chances and average size of tribe doesn't make much difference to me - but the 4e powers tell me how the monsters in question think by telling me what they do in high pressure situations). Stunningly good game balance for such a complex system, rather than needing to worry whether Angel Summoner or BMX Bandit will turn up. And excellent improvisation and target rules in Page 42 and skill challenges. 4e therefore actively supports my DMing.

And frankly, when I sit down to play D&D, there isn't a rep for WoTC (or Paizo) at the table. The game stands or falls on its own merit. Whatever their PR :):):):)ups, WoTC get this part right IMO.
 

Baveboi

First Post
For the game itself I have no hate. I don't play it because I just can't put more effort into learning another rpg entirely. Took me long enough to learn how to properly play D&D 3.x and AD&D, I just can't find the time to learn the tricks and trades of forth edition.
Now, limitations aside, what tips my RAEG gears is what they did to Forgotten Realms and the games fluff/background. The playerbook's main races, to name a few, made me crawl in disgust while I tried to claw my eyes out of my face.

It was bad enough before WotC facilitated it to those guys who always wanted to play a half-dragon with a dragon class using dragon armor, riding a dragon while shooting dragon lazer from their eyes. And his other half was also dragon. Dragon.

But that's just me and a select group of people who see Fantasy RPGs like D&D as something more of a storytelling and game exercise and, you know, less crunchy.
 

thejc

First Post
To tell you the truth I don't think theres a version I have yet to completely dislike. Im a gamer. Mechanics are secondary, to the theme story and flavor of the game. Thats my biggest gripe maybe, the mechanics and player options have increased exponentially. Granted I like having my attack bonus and saves on the same page. Versus THAC0 on page 92 and my save on 236.

Some things I enjoy about 4e

-The fact the spellcasters can still do something with their magic after they have used their "allotment" of spells(ala [MENTION=5566]Will[/MENTION] powers)
-That clerics just aren't walking, intelligent wands of healing, nor do they have to be due to the healing surge.
-The interupt and immediate action better defined.

There are more. Some things I like, and more than a few things I don't, but really I have yet to find the PERFECT system in which I am completely satisfied. I am just thankful to play sometimes, becoming that 13 yr old kid again, brain full of wonder, heart beating fast at what may be behind this huge door. The thief opens it up. Some sort of arena, much like a joisting event. No crowd. A huge door opens opposite of our party. The thief moves to the left. The elf nocks an arrow and goes right. My fighter, the other fighter and cleric move to the front. The wizard right behind us. We are unprepared. A eath knight, and a cyclops come out of the tunnel. The door behind us is now sealed. With no choice we ready ourselves for battle. My turn I decide to throw a hand axe at the Cyclops. Natural 20!! I am hooked for life.
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
One of the reasons I advocate a "D&D Classics" line is that 4E is a different game, as was 3.x and AD&D and BECMI. A lot of difficulties come from treating a new edition like the previous edition and trying to use it the same way.

WotC needs to embrace their role as steward of D&D and stop letting other companies give life long D&Ders their " fix".
 

It was bad enough before WotC facilitated it to those guys who always wanted to play a half-dragon with a dragon class using dragon armor, riding a dragon while shooting dragon lazer from their eyes. And his other half was also dragon. Dragon.

Now, I have no idea which edition you are talking about here. Is it the 2e Council of Wyrms (and I know one of my friends managed to play a half-dragon in 2e), is it the 3e concept of ECL by which almost any race became playable, definitely including half-dragons, or is it the way 4e added a few races to the stock list? Because of that set, 4e is the one that least fits your description.

But that's just me and a select group of people who see Fantasy RPGs like D&D as something more of a storytelling and game exercise and, you know, less crunchy.

If it's a lack of crunch you want, why are you playing D&D? There are so many Indy games that lack crunch - no edition of D&D ever has. And for that matter, why do you look down on people who see and use the storytelling potential inherent in e.g. tieflings. And if you don't look down on players of elves or tieflings, what's wrong with dragonborn?
 


Crazy Jerome

First Post
I've enjoyed all versions of D&D at least well enough to have a good time playing them, and most versions well enough to spend considerable time running long campaigns. I'm happy running 4E right now, for many of the reasons previously mentioned. (Egads, to actually enjoy preparation again. It's not even prep work. It's fun prep. First time since high school, and that was a long time ago. :p)

Funny thing is, though, that the things I don't particularly like about 4E I also don't like about D&D period. For example, no version of D&D has ever come close to remotely handling skills in a way that I find satisfying. But then, I'm not sure that D&D could do so, and still be D&D. It is what it is.
 

Baveboi

First Post
Now, I have no idea which edition you are talking about here. Is it the 2e Council of Wyrms (and I know one of my friends managed to play a half-dragon in 2e), is it the 3e concept of ECL by which almost any race became playable, definitely including half-dragons, or is it the way 4e added a few races to the stock list? Because of that set, 4e is the one that least fits your description.
That was in 3.x, and still happens periodically within my group. Vide down below. Bear with me a moment while I explain myself.


If it's a lack of crunch you want, why are you playing D&D? There are so many Indy games that lack crunch - no edition of D&D ever has. And for that matter, why do you look down on people who see and use the storytelling potential inherent in e.g. tieflings. And if you don't look down on players of elves or tieflings, what's wrong with dragonborn?
[sblock]Don't get me wrong, friend. I have nothing against players that wish potential for storytelling. THAT is wicked, and once I almost wished I had not a scarred mind when a player came with a well built Minotaur to me.
He made fluffy background with race specific interpretation and actually spent his time researching how minotaurs act, reproduce, socialize, interact with others, what they eat, etc. He dictated whys and whens and hows so well I could only hug him while I added the character to the game.
In the same session a player made Half-Dragon Dragon Shaman who used skills from Oriental Adventures (because he liked them), was raised by elves (have no idea why) and lived with dwarfs (just because he wanted to have a mithral breastplate). He wasn't acting like a dragon half-breed at all, just a random guy with scales and it was hard to put him with the group, he felt very left aside. But what kind of plot can I show someone that has no personality, no past (worth mentioning), nothing except his complete lack of hair?
Note the same happened in another game of nother friend of ours. His character was a ninja and just... stood there, without a real personality or well built background. The only thing he had was a katana with a demon inside he could summon, much like a Bleach deal.

As you can see my friend, my problem is not with what you do, it's how it's done.
A story well told can make you believe almost anything without a drop of doubt, but some people doesn't care for that anymore.


Telling tales is a dying practice nowadays, thought. I feel sad that people cares less and less about it and more and more about balance and what is ruled and what is not. I once felt like writting a book everytime I played a game of D&D (yes, you can tell a good tale and still use many mechanics with it), but now I feel more like a bag of tricks kinda deal and things like habit, personality, family and tradition are lost in the middle of how much damage someone can do.
That's the feeling 4ed passes down to me. They overlook many a good tale, or even where it did came from (Eladrin, Drow, Half-Dragon, to name a few), only for the mere amusement of a massing group that feels no excitment for the real stories. Contrary to what I feel when I read Lankhmar or Elaine Cunningham's Daughter of The Drow (I'm not even sure if she knows what THACO is), even Order of The Stick has more dept than numbers. These kind of thing; the really well woven stories, made along the course of years and years, are what made these games so special. It wasn't the dices or the mechanics, they are complementary and I feel no need to adhere to a game that overlook the former to enphasize the later.
[/sblock]

Again, it's my OWN PERSONAL OPINION. I have nothing against what 4ed is or its players. It only ticks me how people does it and feel its alright to be empty of reason or devoid of emotion. That's all.



PS: A writter takes 5 years to write a good book. WotC took 3 years to make 5 new books and new entire game. Take any conclusions you want.



EDIT: Sorry for the wall of text. Made it more graceous for the eyes now.
 
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